The 6th Fetter: Sample Dialogue
Inquiry into the Subject
This is an edited version of an actual dialogue in which the illusion of having a subjective aspect to experience was ultimately dispelled. My comments are in plain font, and their responses are in bold. As with many dialogues, it took several exchanges for them to become attuned to what the dialogue was focused on, that thus to shift from a conceptual to an experiential perspective.
OK, let's go!
The 6th fetter is the insistence that "form" is real, that you and all else are things which exist in a subject-object duality, with apparent boundaries between. “Form” means anything and everything that is distinct: a door, a memory about yesterday, whatever.
For purposes of a DP approach, a “subject” is apparently attested to by one or more “objects” that are habitually recognized. For example, if you pick an object, such as a door, the fact that you can discern a “door” is used to affirm “I the subject am seeing that door”.
I should say that the sense of "me" will almost certainly persist throughout this, so don't worry if the sense of "here" and "I" keep popping up. Rather than looking for that "I", as with desire, this is about something that "I have".
Let's jump right in: feel free to do all of these exercises a couple at a time and let me know what happens and what your experiences are :-)
1. As an exercise, pick an object in the room, such as a door. Look at it for a bit, and then close your eyes for a few seconds.
As you open your eyes again, notice how you take in the visual information and start to recognize it's a "door" again. Watch what happens next: where does that visual information go? Where is it processed? And how would you describe the "door recognition" process?
It may seem as if you are "looking back in experience" for the subject that is involved. Where is the information received, whereby it is interpreted as “door out there”?
It’s true, there is a "door" in awareness, but how and why is it an “object door” being viewed by a “subject”?
Where is the subject in all of this? What or who else is in awareness beside the door?
2. Next, please pick a thought about something that happened yesterday. As you take in the mental information, as the images, words and sounds rise and fall, where does that information go? Where is the subject that detects this information and knows this issue/memory is an object?
3. Now, go back to the door or whatever. Notice how it seems like there is an object being beheld by a subject. Where exactly is the boundary between subject and object?
4. Next, close your eyes, knowing the door is out there nearby: where is the boundary now?
5. Now close your eyes and consider again the memory from yesterday. If you the subject are discerning that thought/memory as an object, where exactly is the boundary between subject and object?
6. Finally, without the other person knowing what you’re doing, just go sit somewhere near someone, such that they are in your field of vision, but don’t engage them in anyway. Just two people sitting near each other. It could be in the meditation hall, or wherever. There’s no denying that the other person is there: no nihilism allowed! However, how and why is there an “object called person” as opposed to just “a person”? Again, where is the “subject” involved in this, such that there is an “object”?
I look forward to hearing how all this goes!!
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OK. It was a small blue stool I looked at…
As you open your eyes again, notice how you take in the visual information and start to recognize it's a "door" again. I did this three time. 1. I got, ‘It’s still there’ 2. ‘It’s blue’ 3. There were a couple of seconds before I labelled it. Watch what happens next: where does that visual information go? I remembered from previous experience. Where is it processed? In the brain (an assumption). And how would you describe the "door recognition" process? I know it’s a stool, I’ve seen it before.
It may seem as if you are "looking back in experience" for the subject that is involved. Yes, certainly, see above. Where is the information received, whereby it is interpreted as “door out there”? Mmm.. not the eyes. They just ‘see’. Thinking……….. I am back with the brain/the memory.
It’s true, there is a "door" in awareness, but how and why is it an “object door” being viewed by a “subject”? It’s out there and I’m in here…(Discomfort arises. And a sense that I’m trying to find answers in the brain but that isn’t where the answers are.)
Where is the subject in all of this? What or who else is in awareness beside the door? Me and Me again, but again there is discomfort, and I’m not entirely convinced. See No. 3 above, when there was only the stool in awareness, but that was so fleeting.
3. Now, go back to the door or whatever. Notice how it seems like there is an object being beheld by a subject. Where exactly is the boundary between subject and object?
There can’t be one. It isn’t possible for there to be a boundary, but it seems as though there is.
NB. I know perfectly well that the stool is still there, even when I am not looking at it, or aware of it.
I am beginning not to like this stool. Ha! Ha! Ha!
I expect that I will be thinking about all of this now for the rest of the day, and much longer.
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You're doing well :-) Some questions/suggestions:
If you can, wait a couple seconds again before labeling it, or a few more seconds if you can manage it: what is the experience of that?
Does it feel like to have to?
When it is labelled, it seems that happens in the brain. Where exactly? Say, within a quarter inch or so? And if it seems like a memory is in play, where exactly is that?
Can you recognize a “stool” without any reference to something “in here”?
And rather than telling yourself there can’t be a boundary, how can you know for sure?
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Oh, very good.......I’ll work on these ideas/questions. Last night, as I was falling asleep, I was ‘looking’ at dozens of objects, and saying, “That’s not separate from me....” But I didn’t believe it!
More anon.
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OK, look forward to hearing how it goes.
Instead of asserting they are not separate, see how they are apparently separate, really look: what supports are in place such that you conclude they are :-)
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I feel as though all I have to offer are false trails and red herrings, but best to get those out of the way, eh?
Today I looked for longer, and kept my eyes shut for longer also. I went through this initial process twice.
After I opened my eyes it felt like much longer before any labelling occurred, and in that space it didn’t much matter if the stool was labelled or not. After a few seconds I was aware, somewhere, that it was a stool. Just ‘a stool’ with no reference to being out there or in here. It just was. Of course, that state didn’t last!
I loved your questions about ‘where exactly’ in the brain.....’a quarter of an inch’..? So much inner laughter arises when I look at that phrase, it’s ridiculous. And, of course I can’t find any labelling in the brain. No doubt because it isn’t there. I realise that I have been here before with other investigations, in that I know there isn’t any such labelling, nor any boundaries....But..........I don’t know it from direct experience. Not yet.
At that point, I was interrupted.
Later, after tea, gazing at the teapot I was thinking - there isn’t a boundary, I only perceive one.......ah! it’s that ‘in the brain’ thing again which crept up on me. Mmmm I know it’s a teapot, because of past experience.........ah...isn’t that ‘memory’ again? I know it’s a teapot because everybody says so....Well, fat lot of good that is!
Back to boundaries.....Teapot, and me, and everything are just a bunch of molecules, according to physics......and when I touch the teapot an slight exchange of molecules occurs...therefore.. no boundaries...............so why do I see the teapot/stool as separate?
I only tell you of my musings. I will have another go tomorrow. Do you think it best to keep with the same questions, or try some of the others from you initial response?
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This all sounds good so far :-) It's a different sort of approach than desire, by necessity...
Go over as before, and try these as well:
1. As you move about, or cast your gaze about, every time something new is recognized (door, wall, tree, person, book, etc.), try looking for what might feel like a "quick look back" in experience. There might be the instantaneous recognition of whatever it is, and then a referring back to someone/something, perhaps it will feel as if it's in your head, heart center, etc., by which you'll quickly affirm "yes, that's a tree, and this is me looking at it". After this quick look, your awareness will likely go back to the tree.
2. However, if you stare at something long enough, there will likely be a recurring "look back" just to make sure. So, pick something and just stay on it for a bit, and watch as attention shifts from subject to object. How much time is spent on the object, and how much time is spent (roughly) referring back at all?
3. Then, as an exercise, see how long you can stay "out there" with an inanimate object, and not refer back in any way to yourself at all. In the seen, just the seen, as it were. At first, you might only last a few seconds, but you'll get better at it. What is your experience of this???
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In the morning I had an interesting time looking at a door. It occurs to me that my ‘report’ and you response are out of synch, due to the difference in time zones. I thought if I keep back what I wrote down yesterday,
Do the looking and thinking today, in the light of your latest comments, then send both lots together.
I must say that I am quite enjoying getting to grips with this, and not feeling the fear I felt with the desire/ill will is a huge bonus. I am already doing a form of what you suggest at #1: it happens spontaneously, so I will refine that in the light of your advice.
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Sounds good - I look forward to hearing how it all goes.
We'll get a bit more focused, but I think it's good that you're exploring all the different ways in which the world of form is seen :-)
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Here is a double dose for you, it doesn’t feel very focused at all, particularly today when I don’t feel ‘on the ball’. Still, that will change, thank goodness. I feel as though I am not engaging the way I believe you would like me to, and that isn’t comfortable. Be better if I stopped second guessing, eh?
Tuesday: A door. We don’t consciously label. We know it is a door (think I’ve been at this point before). It felt fine not labelling. There was no need. The thought arises that it is much easier to envisage non-separation from a person, or the cat than an inanimate object. Door is harder than a stool or a teapot...mmm
Why? Am I looking for sameness/differences? No. Must remember this is about non separation, so easy to get side-tracked.
Looked at the door again.....Didn’t label it. No need. The door is what it is.......an object (Ah!) back to separation.
Then tried No. 2 on your first email. A memory. OK......what was that....thoughts of a past event....mental activity.
(I wasn’t conscious of a ‘me’ thinking that, it simply arose.) Where does that get me? Nowhere.
Didn’t feel like subject/object felt as if the memory were a part of me, not a separate entity. Not out there, just thoughts, arising and departing.
Tried No. 4 on the same email. No boundary. Just thoughts of the door. Just that.
So, I conclude that non-separation is easier inside the mind, as it were, that when looking at a concrete object or person.
Very interesting.
(I was reminded that I have occasionally experienced a brief non-separation of self and another person when deep in the Metta Bhavana. That felt perfectly natural.)
Wednesday at home.
A chair, then a door.
Am finding this harder today. Am restless, and kept trying different objects, until I settled down a bit.
Didn’t get the ‘referring back’ at first. Now, I wonder if it is when I look at an object and begin to think about when it was acquired, and the circumstances. Maybe I’m not delving deep enough, as mostly referring back didn’t happen, it was as if on automatic pilot. Is this a good thing? Or not? Maybe I’m trying too hard? Trying to put ‘stuff’ there which wasn’t really there? Seems to be an instant recognition, with no need to label. A ‘knowing’ in the brain?
When I wasn’t referring back to self at all, it felt very calm - very ‘right’ - that is as it is.........(I had another thought here, but I lost it!)
Do I really do, ‘that is chair/door/etc., and this is me looking at it? Not consciously ‘Making’ it conscious seems to separate even more, whereas when I ‘just noticed’ there didn’t seem to be any ‘me’ Not that I was aware of.....
I feel a bit lost....maybe I am trying to sort out what I’m Not trying to do before I can focus on what I AM trying to do?
Best of luck with sorting out this rigmarole!
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No worries - this all sounds good. You're not lost from what I read - I did give you a lot of things to try out :-)
That you've had a sense of non-separateness in the metta bhavana, and that it felt right, is good to know.
And yes, as you look at something, and you start to think about it, when and how you acquired it: consider that you've already "objectified" it. As you say, there is an instant recognition: why do you need more than that, such that you go on to thinking about the teapot or whatever? Does that make it more real?
Please try a few more modest sessions of staying "out there" with something, and focus on that feeling/sense of calm and "this is right". Pick one thing, or a few things. Why would you stray from that calm point? Does it feel as if there is a part of you that needs to step forward, be seen, be accounted for... why not just stay "out there" for an hour? Is there something that comes into play somewhere in you? If so, what and where exactly is it?
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Here are some more bits. Rather incoherent I’m afraid. Also I haven’t yet got to grips with everything you suggested.
This stuff is very difficult to capture, and then put into words, but you know that. Currently I feel as though I am groping about in the dark, trying to find something which keeps moving away!
Large candle
Thought, rather than felt,……”the self-reference/subject comes back to ‘me’ which doesn’t exist…..but it feels as though it does.”
Am aware of very subtle mental shiftings around……then…”I don’t want it to be separate”…..slight discomfort arises, as before.
…Felt rather than thought, “It’s only separate because I think it is”……
The more I look, the more the mental ‘boundary’ blurs.
Blue stool
….Look…relax into it….”It is unlovely” (and separate from me….(I’m getting a forehead headache at that point…))
…That’s a Very subjective thought (and so was ‘pretty’ re. the chair, earlier)
Not yet clear about how/where looking for the subject occurs. Feels as though I almost have it, then it slides away again… Maybe I just need to spend more time with these new pointers……obviously, whatever you think…..
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(Later)
“Large candle......
1. One bit of back-referral.
2. No back ref., but background prattle in the mind, noting to do with the candle.
3. Remembered to relax into the looking....just looked....calm and pleasant to be doing this.
The more I relax, it seems as if there is less separation. Maybe I need to check that out?
The stool
Yes, the more I relax, the easier this exercise is, and it doesn’t feel as though I am pushing the stool away.
It is there, and I look at it, calmly, easily....(5 minutes) Could keep this up for even longer. The mental prattle is very small now. Unfortunately, I am tired and not too well, so concentration wanders, but no labelling, no self ref at all. The idea of stool/”me” not being separate no longer seems an impossibility.”
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A nuance would be that you're already looking at the supposed "proof" of a subject, all the objects (i.e., the door, the books). It's not that you're trying to find the proof, but rather your trying to find what it is those things ostensibly prove exists.
So, that's great that you can stay "out there" with objects, for quite a period of time!
What I'd like you to do now is to allow the referring back to occur, perhaps in a slow or controlled manner if possible, and as that self-referring starts up, look for what is being referred back to.
Also please notice to what extent there seems to be a separation or boundary being established, if the sense of that arises.
However, the thing to look for is what is being referred to when self-reference arises, that makes the duality possible.
If the duality sets up before you can do any looking, try to allow it to soften by staying "out there" with the object, and then try it again. Or, pick something else in the room if that helps.
Try it a few times to get the hang of what this "gap" looks like and how/where the looking for the subject occurs.
It's just like looking for a "self" or "desire and ill will", only the next layer of subtlety down.
I look forward to hearing how this goes!!
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I had a go this morning, and really want to do more, but my partner had a change of plans which affected me, which had a knock on effect.
It may be possible to look again later on, but I wanted to get this off now. I wrote my notes onto Word, so have attached them. Maybe if you don’t respond until you see if there is more today?
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It's not clear from what you wrote, but I assume that you were staying "out there" with those objects, then came inside with them as it were? A suggestion is that, as soon as you feel you're the least bit "in here", let go of the object and look for where that visual information was on its way to, what is to be compared to. As such, closing your eyes at that moment will likely be helpful, and leaving them shut as you look.
It may feel like the subject is in a particular portion of the body, such as the breastbone or somewhere. Or, a particular location may not seem apparent.
Feel free to open your eyes and peek at the object to keep the sense of referring back alive.
Another way to look at it is that, in referring back, you are validating or even establishing the subject. It might even feel satisfying or reassuring to do so. What did you just validate or establish, that you weren't aware of a moment ago??
If thoughts about "that's his chair", or really any thought at all, try to let that go, since you've likely objectified whatever it is at that point. If so, as you did, move on to something else :-)
Why is it not just a thing, but that thing in relation to me the subject?
I look forward to hearing how this goes!
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Thank you -this looks to be very helpful. And, yes, I was staying ‘out there’ then coming inside, sorry I didn’t make that clear.
I am sure that shutting my eyes will be a great help.
I do admire your guiding technique, especially as you don’t always have much to go on from me. :-)
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Here it is, full of confusion and some doubts......
Oh, your last line, “Why is it not just a thing.....etc.” At the moment it feels as though me/the subject keeps on putting myself in the way. Oh, those beautiful, simple words, “In the seen only the seen.....”, and how hard it is to do it!
Small upright chair.
I am armed with notebook and a copy of your email, and aim to take this a bit at a time.
The self-reference kicked in almost at once, but I noted it down as it seemed revealing.
Will try again later on, trying to get the hang of a ‘gap’….
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This sounds good :-) Go ahead and label it as "chair", "shed" or whatever: thinking about how and why it is a shed or whatever, and the mental associations you have, is another thing.
There is a settee and a human (who goes by my name) in all this, no doubt about it! Why does it have to be a "settee out there" viewed by a "subject in here"?
What in you, and where, provides and maintains the persisting form and separation of the settee out there?
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Thanks for that. It’s good to know that I am moving on the right track. Unfortunately today, after a lot of essential shopping, etc., I have run out of steam, but - tomorrow looks good. The beauty of all this ‘work’ is that even when not really, really, concentrating, I can be thinking about it while engaging in everyday life, and who knows what might happen?
More anon.
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This sounds good :-) Go ahead and label it as "chair", "shed" or whatever: thinking about how and why it is a shed or whatever, and the mental associations you have, is another thing.
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Here is today’s report - I think part of it will make you laugh!
“What in you, and where, provides and maintains the persisting form and separation of the settee out there? “
OK Habit, upbringing, the persistent voice of ‘ordinary’ logic/common sense. I know, conceptually that the Reality is different….
Striped chair
I went through the looking twice, but have reported it all in one.
Look….shut eyes…etc.. go in as deep as I could. Found the place of discomfort ( the gap?) stayed in it with the chair. Discomfort seems to be because I don’t want this separation. Every really deep experience I have had points to non-duality, which makes perfect sense……but…
Looking, I find no reason whatever why this nice chair should be separate from me.
But, again, I don’t believe it……… I feel a battle going on, and I have been there before, with the desire/illwill………the tension between ‘yes it is’, and ‘no it isn’t’.
Sit in striped chair (!) look at the armchair.
Looked, etc. as before. Chair and me floating down/along, quite happy together. Asked, “Why are we separate then?”. Got a very faint answer, “But we’re not”….then immediately lost that and came back into the room.
I want to kick something!!
Generally I feel disturbed, and even more uncomfortable.
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Ha! Don't kick the chair too hard - it's part of the dialogue now!! :-)
1. As the separation comes up, or even if it simply persists, please ask yourself: what is separate from the chair? Again, not a conceptual exercise, but looking for the thing in you that is the locus or focal point of "I'm here" as opposed to "chair there". Sure, there are lots of habitual ways of thinking, conventional ways of talking about what is currently happening, but feel free to set those aside. If the chair is out there, what is in here that recognizes and validates that "out-there-ness"?
2. When the separation is noticed, what seem to be between you and the object? A rod of some sort, as with a compression shower curtain rod? An invisible wall? An insulating blanket? What seems to isolate you from the object?
3. Imagine pouring various colors of sand onto a horizontal canvas, making a Tibetan mandala, a picture of tree, or whatever. If you don't somehow fix the sand to the canvas, say with glue of some sort, when you tilt it up, everything simply slides back off.
With this in mind, please close your eyes. As you take in the canvas of all the thoughts and appearances on the stage of the mind, allow one thought to arise, whatever it is: what you did yesterday, something that needs to be done tomorrow, whatever comes up.
As that thought arises, what in you acts as the glue, fixing the issue into awareness for however long you might think about it, such that it is "that thought"? What in you responds as the thought first starts up, when it's still in the unlabeled word/image stage, that isolates it, gives it form, and allows you to recognize "ah, that thought/memory/issue"?
It might feel as if something in you reaches out to recognize or validate it, or that the information streams into you, such that it can be recognized and validated. Whatever the process seems to be (what does it seem to be??), What in you seems to be participating, and where is it?
Otherwise, without this thing/process taking place, the words and images would simply rise and fall with sticking, without being thought about or prolonged at all.
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In the early hours of the morning I thought, “It’s like clearing out a cupboard, throw out the habitual ways of being, the left-over ideas from conditioning, etc., and what you have left is Nothing!” However, that hasn’t yet percolated to the inner parts of me...
Thanks........More anon
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Yes, a cupboard with several layers of conceptualized stuff as it were, cleaned out until nothing remains :-)
Look forward to hearing how things are going!
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I pondered over your email, and would like to explore all this for at least another day, probably more, with no further imput from you, if that’s OK with you. I no longer feel cross, confused, or disturbed, which is a bonus. Now I am feeling excited, and determined! Some of my comments are below, some other few in the attachment.
1. As the separation comes up, or even if it simply persists, please ask yourself: what is separate from the chair? Again, not a conceptual exercise, but looking for the thing in you that is the locus or focal point of "I'm here" as opposed to "chair there". Sure, there are lots of habitual ways of thinking, conventional ways of talking about what is currently happening, but feel free to set those aside. If the chair is out there, what is in here that recognizes and validates that "out-there-ness"? I am becoming less sure that there is a separation......but there is nothing, how can there be? (conceptually so far)
2. When the separation is noticed, what seem to be between you and the object? A rod of some sort, as with a compression shower curtain rod? An invisible wall? An insulating blanket? What seems to isolate you from the object? NO, nothing like that. More like a ..mmm.....Impossible to say, especially as it has got more subtle
3. Imagine pouring various colors of sand onto a horizontal canvas, making a Tibetan mandala, a picture of tree, or whatever. If you don't don't somehow fix the sand to the canvas, say with glue of some sort, when you tilt it up, everything simply slides back off. BRILLIANT
· As that thought arises, what in you acts as the glue, fixing the issue into awareness for however long you might think about it, such that it is "that thought"? What in you responds as the thought first starts up, when it's still in the unlabeled word/image stage, that isolates it, gives it form, and allows you to recognize "ah, that thought/memory/issue" Sorry, Can’t do this yet
· It might feel as if something in you reaches out to recognize or validate it, or that the information streams into you, such that it can be recognized and validated. Whatever the process seems to be (what does it seem to be??), What in you seems to be participating, and where is it? So, I haven’t got this far.
· Otherwise, without this thing/process taking place, the words and images would simply rise and fall with sticking, without being thought about or prolonged at all. This sounds like a big, scary, hugely liberating state. Just wait for me to get there!
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Here is today’s report - I think part of it will make you laugh!
Piano stool
Looked, as before…shut eyes….was at once in the floating -about -together space. This time, stool & I were tumbling around each other & I could touch the leathery top of the stool. Didn’t feel either separate or not separate. It just was.
Door
As before….was perfectly happy in freefall with the door as my companion. No words, no thoughts, no feeling of separation, or not.
So, your NO. 3. Love the sand mandala image and can see that it will be a very powerful tool.
Your 1st bullet point……OK..did that…but
Yr. 2nd bullet point…ah!..... yet able to be at the place where the thought first starts up, so couldn’t go further. This will certainly need much more practice, which is fine with me.
Tried this 3 or 4 times. I understand the general idea, but am not quite there yet.
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OK, I will just say "keep going!" :-)
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After yesterday’s rather low key report, I just want to say that I made a definite shift in the right direction. It was last night, between waking and sleeping (again). Can’t say more, as I am going out for the day.
Thought you would like to know that all is not at a standstill! But don’t hold your breath.....
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OK, but will take short, shallow breaths nonetheless :-)
Look forward to hearing how things are shifting.
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Oh, yes, please keep breathing!
So, last night, thinking about what you had said, when another thought arose, I rewound it slightly, and then looked at it. Did this quite a few times, and observed that the pre-thought was almost always in the form of a picture, which then triggered off whatever. Sometimes it was a feeling, mid body, followed by the thought and expansion of the thought.
It seemed as if there was a grabbing/grasping from within the body, not yet clarified exactly where. At that point the picture, etc. became ‘solid’, and felt recognised/ validated. During this time, and behind it as it were, there was an awareness of the sand mandala, so there was a sensation of thoughts/feelings shifting about, being un-fixed. The sensation was clear, and not unpleasant.
Just before I actually fell asleep, it seemed that I had seen something which I can work on, explore more deeply.
Perhaps, at some stage catching the pre-thought will become more the norm, but I am speculating here.
OK. THE question, ‘What is in me ....’, or first of all, ‘why is there a need to validate?’. Mmm......there isn’t any need to do that, there isn’t any point. An example:- A picture of the other women in the Tuesday morning study group at the Centre came to mind. That was enough, but what happened was that I then thought, “I have to go to the Centre tomorrow....and.....and...”
What in me...?” There can’t be a ‘what’ or a ‘thing’. That doesn’t make sense, there can’t be any such ‘thing’ sitting inside my body, or mind. There can’t be any such mechanism. OK OK I know, WHY does it happen then, when there is nothing there. Do ‘I’ construct these thoughts? Why? To make ‘me’ feel better?? What do I mean by that?
Now I have got myself lost............
That’s the best I can do so far. I did appreciate you saying OK, go ahead, but of course that was before I managed to unravel some bits where I was stuck. What do you think? As you know, I am quite happy to keep repeating the same ‘exercises’, or whatever my guide thinks is best.
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Yes, it generally starts in the form of a mental picture, which could solidify into a "thing" or simply evaporate. I like the term "pre-thought" :-)
An analogy is the toner in a laser printer, which fixes the ink to the paper. If you're out of toner, the ink is placed where it should on the paper, and you can see "letters" on the page, but a simply brush of the hand smears it beyond recognition.
And yes, it's that grabbing/grasping, [perhaps reaching out our sense of something rebounding inside, that allows that thought to "take form", to start to have boundaries. And yes, it can become the norm, and not in a disorienting or unpleasant way. (spoiler alert - that's what's happening anyway...)
As the pre-thought goes from an image to a "thing with form", is there a sensation or set of sensations that you notice, perhaps on your sternum, front of the head, etc.? It might feel like something is pushing at you in order to provide some separation between you and this new object. Or, it may seem as if that is were the grasping has its foundation, as if a stepping stone were being relied upon in order to reach out towards this new thing, even if it is just a thought on the stage of the mind.
It's one thing for there to be a perceived separation between you and the object, and another to be aware of what seems to be happening in you that allows and causes that separation to be set up and maintained. The inquiry/dialog is about that second aspect, what and where in you that separation is found(ed).
So, the question I'm asking in this rambling email is: where is the incipient and maintained separation based, and what is actually there at that spot?
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Just to acknowledge that I have read this one - several times. I am reminded of a friend of mine, who, if she had read this, would have said, “It does my head in”........Exactly!
Right.......Back to work.
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OK. Here goes....... from my notes......” Being wide awake, I revisited the ‘technique’ which had occurred when I was half-asleep. Visualised/imagined an object in my mind, if the thought came too quickly I re-wound to get to the pre-thought. Tried to relax more, as when half-asleep I was extremely relaxed.
Yes, sensation in sternum area. Yes, a reaching* outwards, rather than leaving the object alone or letting it go.
(*Not in the sense of ‘I want it’ - or, I don’t think so....) Sometimes thoughts didn’t arise, or hardly. Sometimes sensation very subtle indeed, only a tiny flicker. Kept bringing the sand mandala to mind.
I begin to see how the previous stages of our dialogue have led to this point........
I am doing at good job of not answering the question! Mmm..........(what) and where in me?..
Silly answer -in the sternum. No, of course not, and I can say why not but it’s irrelevant.
The other answer, which isn’t off the top or slick, but arrived at, almost reluctantly, is, Nowhere, there isn’t anything. There is definitely a shifting happening. I feel as if the stone I was standing on is wobbling a lot. More subtle than that, but there are no suitable words. The sense of slipping and sliding is not unpleasant - yes it is, but not too much so, and it feels right, somehow...Don’t know what I am talking about. Don’t know anything....
Also, there is a slowly growing feeling that there isn’t any separation in any case - well, less and less....
I have to get back to the ordinary world now, which is a shame.”
Afterwards, I was in a not-quite-normal space in my head, for nearly an hour, which was odd, but OK.
Now, I can still feel this, but much more subtly.
Look forward to your reply.
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OK, a little disorientation is par for the course :-)
This all sounds good: perhaps try it again, and really zero in on where the subtle sensation is felt in the sternum, and look for what is providing any sort of resistance, reflection or other processing/interpretation of the incipient mental picture.
Also, please try the following:
1. Sitting down and closing your eyes, locate individual parts of your body, such as ankle, knee, elbow, ear, etc. How do you know where they are? Having done a particular part, feel free to peek and see what the difference is with and without the visual faculty in play.
2. Now focus on the boundary of your body, mostly skin but a few other bits too :-) Try to locate in your experience where exactly that boundary is: how is it that you know? Is it memory? Sensation? How is it that you know where your body is and isn't?
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Today I am disappointed, but I suppose that some falling off is to be expected sometimes...sigh...
I have had a very hectic day, people calling round, people ringing up, etc..which didn’t help my state of mind - Excuses....
This all sounds good: perhaps try it again, and really zero in on where the subtle sensation is felt in the sternum, HA. I COULD HARDLY FIND ANY SENSATION AT ALL NEVER MIND SUBTLE, OR ZERO IN. I TRIED TWICE, WITH AN INTERVAL BETWEEN, BUT NO GOOD. I THOUGHT I HAD BETTER NOT TRY TO FORCE IT AT ALL, EVEN IF I COULD HAVE. BETTER TOMORROW I HOPE. and look for what is providing any sort of resistance, reflection or other processing/interpretation of the incipient mental picture.
GOT ON BETTER WITH THE NEXT PARTS. THERE IS SOME REPETITION HERE, AS I THRESHED IT OUT, THINKING OF DIFFERENT ASPECTS.
Also, please try the following:
1. Sitting down and closing your eyes, locate individual parts of your body, such as ankle, knee, elbow, ear, etc. How do you know where they are? Having done a particular part, feel free to peek and see what the difference is with and without the visual faculty in play.
SURPRISINGLY, I DIDN’T KNOW WHERE THE BODY PARTS WERE IS I WASN’T LOOKING. IF MY HAND OR FOOT WAS TOUCHING THE SEAT OR FLOOR, YES, THEN I KNEW, BUT OTHERWISE NOT. I AM TRUSTING THAT MY EARS ARE STILL IN PLACE BUT WITHOUT LOOKING, OR TOUCHING, I CAN’T TELL.
WHEN I OPEN MY EYES, AND SEE MY HAND, FOR INSTANCE, I SEE LOTS OF DETAIL THAT I DIDN’T/COULDN’T IMAGINE WITH MY EYES CLOSED. THERE WAS JUST A VAGUE IDEA OF WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE, NOT AT ALL LIKE THE VISUAL PICTURE.
2. Now focus on the boundary of your body, mostly skin but a few other bits too :-) Try to locate in your experience where exactly that boundary is: how is it that you know? Is it memory? Sensation? How is it that you know where your body is and isn't?
BOUNDARY.....AGAIN, WITH THOSE BODY PARTS TOUCHING FLOOR OR CHAIR I KNEW BY THE SENSATION WHERE THE BOUNDARY WAS. OR, I COULD FEEL CLOTHING TOUCHING ARMS OR LEGS, BUT ON REFLECTION THAT DIDN’T ACTUALLY INDICATE ANY BOUNDARY, OR WHAT THOSE PARTS/ THAT BOUNDARY IS LIKE. WITH EYES SHUT, I MIGHT HAVE ONE HUGE LEG AND ONE SMALL ONE, BUT I DON’T ACTUALLY know.
MEMORY, OR THINKING THAT I KNOW DOESN’T WORK, SINCE I COULD BE SIMPLY IMAGINING A BOUINDARY. WHERE I AM WEARING A HEAVY CARDIGAN OVER A BLOUSE THERE IS NO QUESTION OF KNOWING WHERE MY BODY IS, UNDER ALL THOSE THINGS!
IT SEEMS THAT WHEN I MOVE AROUND MESSAGES FROM MY BRAIN STOP ME BUMPING INTO THINGS (MOSTLY) WHICH DOESN’T MEAN THAT I KNOW WHERE MY BODY IS. IF I COULD CHANGE SHAPE AT WILLMI WOULDN’T KNOW WHAT THAT LOOKED LIKE WITHOUT LOOKING. RAIN, WIND OR SUN MAY TOUCH MY BODY IF I AM OUTSIDE BUT - WAIT - THOSE SENSATIONSI WOULD INDICATE WHERE THOSE PARTS OF THE BODY WAS, BUT NOT ANY ACTUAL BOUNDARY. I WOULD FEEL THE RAIN, BUT I STILL WOULDN’T KNOW IF MY FACE WAS BIG, SMALL, UGLY, PRETTY, OR ANYHTING ELSE.
WALKED AROUND THE HOUSE AND KNEW WHERE MY BODY WAS IN THE SENSE OF IN THE KITCHEN, BEDROOM, ETC. BUT AGAIN, I WASN’T AWARE OF ANY BOUNDARY UNLESS I USED MY EYES.
I hope you aren’t too disappointed. Tomorrow is another day, eh?
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OK, this all sounds good. No worries if the sensation on the sternum isn't there.
The exercise I had you do is how I often help people access the first formless sphere/jhana, which helps disassemble whatever "form" you have currently taken :-) It inquires into your notion of "space" and where you place things (like a "body) in that mental space. When inquiring into the nature of form, it can help clear the decks as it were, to a temporary state where no dualistic forms are really being recognized. No worries that it didn't "stick" or anything: the intent was to get a sense of how you create and locate "things" in the first place, such that you can them create a duality out of two of them (you and whatever you're looking at or thinking about). The formless spheres are also a very natural state, that will simply arise during deep sessions of the mindfulness of breathing: they are what "happens" as you relax the mental processing that normally persists. Hope that isn't too abstract?
As you get time on Friday, please go back and try the basic exercise again: closing your eyes, watch as some mental picture of whatever thought/issue starts to "take form", and try to stay "out there" such that it more or less stays just an incipient mental image. Then, allow the separation to start up, and instead of focusing on the thought/image, look for what it is in you that is participating in this separation process, what is being referred to, relied upon or anchored to, such that the separation into subject and object is possible. The sensation in the sternum may or may not arise, but no worries: you're looking for what in you recognizes the thought/issue and provides a basis for being a subject in opposition to that mental object.
Also, with eyes open, try looking at whatever in the room such as a vase, and allow it to be "out there", and ask yourself: "why? why does this have to be an object, and me the subject? What can't it just be a vase?"
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OK. Thank you. When I do meditate, and I’m not doing so currently, I do the Brahma Viharas, but, that deep formless state is familiar to me from those meditations, especially the end of the 5th stages.
Thanks for the encouragement. It isn’t true to say that this investigation is taking over my life,
as much of that is in ‘neutral’ gear, or my head is full of what is happening, who is with me, etc. BUT
Any quiet spaces I have, then I am mostly thinking about various aspects of the enquiry, and coming back to the basic question.....what in me......?
I’ll let you how I get on later today.
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OK, this all sounds good. No worries if the sensation on the sternum isn't there.
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Looking and looking and not finding a darn thing!
First set, all with closed eyes.
1. Hedge cutters (my partner is outside, busy) - rushed straight into story time.
2. Box of books which arrived yesterday - even worse, I was instantly grabbing, “I want, “I want”. Drop that one.
3. ‘My’ chair outside....oh dear - grabbing - ‘me’ and ‘mine’. Drop that one. (I am learning what won’t do though.)
4. The well-known blue stool. Looked at its ‘blue-stoolness’. Thoughts and stories arose. This time, kept winding back, and looking looking.....sensation now in upper abdomen, ignored it.....wound back....looked at blue stool again, held it for a time, distractions arose......looked behind the thoughts...looked...looked...’What in me?’
- A flash of headache - am I trying too hard?...........Got into story time again....
Relax, see what arises....stories....ah! A special stone in the garden. Looked, lost it, looked at it ‘out there’. Strong abdominal sensation arose, might be frustration. Wait until that calmed down, looked, looked at the pre-thought,, ‘Why does this separation happen - What do I do?’. It’s as if this story teller grabs onto chair/stone, whatever and makes stories about them, and in so doing, objectifies them.
5. Lady at garden centre ‘came up’, held it, looked at ‘her’, no sensation at all, but was drawn towards her, in a mettaful way. Stories arose. Rewind. Held the image. Conscious that she and I are not separate, why do I thionk we are?....Look for whatever it is, look, look.
All I can say is that when I go looking for the ‘What...’ there is beginning to be space around that, though subtle. (For what it’s worth!)
Now with eyes open. Reading lamp
I am perfectly happy for it to be just a lamp. What stops it? If anything?......Very briefly did the ‘I don’t know where my body is’ while bearing the lamp in mind. Felt, rather than thought, that, if I don’t have a boundary, then the lamp doesn’t either. Had to stop there.
Well, you did say, “extremely subtle” didn’t you? What next I wonder.
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With the lady in the garden, seeing that you're not really separate, and space starting to open up around this looking: that's the right direction :-)
If you keep looking but don't find anything, why is there a separation? What is the basis for your interpretation that there is separation?
Please try this: as you visually look at something across the room imagine a tether or rod that connects you and that object, which keeps a constant distance between you and the object. It runs form the object to you the subject. Where does is fasten to/in you, which provides the base or receiver for that rod? Please look for the exact point where that rod makes contact.
Curious - why did you have to stop when feeling that if you don't have a boundary, neither does the lamp? That would be a great place to linger and allow that to sink in a bit...
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If you keep looking but don't find anything, why is there a separation? What is the basis for your interpretation that there is separation? Habit, conceptual belief, etc....but all that is now wearing thin, or so my emotions tell me.
Please try this: as you visually look at something across the room imagine a tether or rod that connects you and that object, which keeps a constant distance between you and the object. It runs form the object to you the subject. Where does is fasten to/in you, which provides the base or receiver for that rod? Please look for the exact point where that rod makes contact. Ah! BIG emotional response of No No here. It feels gross, I don’t like it AT ALL. Is there an alternative, something softer perhaps?
Curious - why did you have to stop when feeling that if you don't have a boundary, neither does the lamp? That would be a great place to linger and allow that ti sink in a bit... Sorry, I should have made that clear. My partner came in at that point, worn out from the gardening, telling me all that he had done, and so on. The spell was broken!
I want to try and get to the same or similar point as yesterday, with the lamp, I did feel that it was important. I should be able to do that later this afternoon.
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Ah, so where is this "habit" and "conceptual belief"?
Not sure if you're asking for a softer alternative way to look? I suspect that trying the "where does the rod contact?" inquiry will be less gross if you do it another time?
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Ah, so where is this "habit" and "conceptual belief"? Thoughts, which arise, and go away again, and have no substance.
Not sure if you're asking for a softer alternative way to look? I suspect that trying the "where does the rod contact?" inquiry will be less gross if you do it another time? No, I meant softer link, like a silken cord? I’ll try that, though I ‘know’ the answer:-)
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Thoughts arise, attesting to a habit or conceptual belief, just as raising your hand used to attest to a "self" making that happen.
Look underneath the behavior: is there a "habit" or "belief" you can find?
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More stream-of-consciousness, as far as I could capture this afternoon’s experiences in words.
My partner was pottering about downstairs, so I retired to our bedroom.
“So, I look at a couple of things and imagining a silken cord separating subject/object. No chance of looking where the cord is connected to me because the whole analogy broke down and I started to laugh at the silliness of the idea.
What comes up loud and clear is, “There isn’t anything separating, It’s nonsense”, and inner laughter.
So, you ask me, ‘Where is the separation?’. Back to what I said earlier, ‘Thoughts...etc...’, then I recollect your answer.
I shut my eyes and try to delve underneath that thought. (Still some inner laughter) “How can that laundry box be separate from me? It clearly isn’t....inner laughter again.......whoa...wait....what about the separation in space? That is there and I am here? What rushed in was, “Yes, when I open my eyes, otherwise not. I shut my eyes, and there is the falling in space, the tumbling around together of the box and me. Disorientation again, even when I open my eyes. Mmm. A parallel with the body exercise, if I look at my foot I know it is there, otherwise not, but I am obviously not separated from my foot.......
Something else arose, very important, but I wasn’t quick enough to catch it. Am feeling its all connected, the body stuff, the stool ‘out there’ /not ‘out there, but very much to do with connection and not the reverse. I feel almost out of breath.
A big sense of shifting about again. Calm down. Shut eyes, let the disorientation just be, see what happens. Is disorientation the new normal? I glance at the laundry box, half expecting it to turn upside down - it didn’t.
Thinking, from the opposite point of view if someone said “That x is separate”. I would state that it is nothing of the kind.
Whoa....that means that the other things are not separate either? No, they aren’t. Can I prove that? No Do I need to? No.
I am astonished that all this is happening. Maybe I will turn upside down? Maybe I already have.
Sat quietly for a while, thoughts rambling away on nothing in particular.”
I still feel slightly shaky, but must do battle with the tea now.
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In the end, as the Zen saying go "mountains are still mountains, and rivers are still rivers". However, not the mountains and rivers you saw before. The laundry box will still be a laundry box, and definitely not one that suddenly turns upside down :-)
Yes, it's all connected. More to the point, it's all how you interpret experience, which by the time you were a very wee girl was a bunch of objects revolving around you the subject. It's disorienting to start to pick that apart (as you've seen!), though once it falls away, it will be the new normal, just as getting on without the sense of a separate "self" became the new normal. If you think about it, the mental infrastructure that will remain is already there, and will simply be allowed to function more freely once the overlay of duality is taken away.
While boundaries and separation are illusions, consider that it is one thing to sees such distinctions, and another to see that "I the subject" has a special place in all of those things. If the subject/object duality falls away, it's just you and everything else on the same footing as it were, all equally important. That there are no boundaries at all will no doubt start to be more and more clear, but here we are looking at why a perceiver and a perceived, "me" and "laundry box", have to be "me the subject" and "laundry box the object".
Please try more or less the same things you describe in your last email, and see if it is a bit less disorienting, and a bit more "oh, that's what's happening..."
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I can relate to the Zen saying, thanks for that.
Downstairs again.
I thought yesterday that the silken cord I mentioned was in any case more of a joining than a separating thing, so I gave the ‘rod’ a go. Could do it today without freaking out, (what was that about?). But, as before, I found the whole idea of such a thing separating me/whatever totally hilarious, so I let that alone.
All the following is with eyes shut, except when I did a quick scribble in my notebook, and to attend to the cat.
Armchair....the separate in space idea...but very close friends are still that, whether they are next to me or on another continent. Forget that one altogether.
Hold the chair in view, move it away, bring it near, label it, let the label go. ‘What separates...what in me...’ - ‘Because I’m special’ - Whoops! Thought I’d got over that stuff 2/3 years ago. Ooh, discomfort..... Now, I see the ‘special’ idea as being extremely funny.......Some free fall of chair/me....Cat interrupts for the third time.....Shift attention to cat. No, neither of us are ‘special’ Why do I think he is separate?......Remember the sand mandala....sand/me/cat fall away. Some slight disorientation. Cat settles down for a nap. Go back....look....Um. Fail to look...’The cat is in ‘his’ box’.....thoughts around that. I am not separate from carpet/cat/box, nor are they separate from one another.
Look again at chair. Consciously go deep as if finding the ‘gap’ - Yes, now there is a lot of space round, ‘What in me?’ Space around chair and me as we tumble around, but not so much tumbling today. Remember the body exercise......dissolve body(easy) now there’s no me.....dissolve chair (harder). Go deeper, hold a lot of ‘visibly invisibly’ molecules.........hold them....am shaken by a big sob, want to weep. The sense of ??? which I can’t quite catch, as yesterday. Go back to the dancing molecules, space around that. Now, it all feels perfectly comfortable........can’t hold it any longer. Come up from the depths, but still have the molecules at the back of my mind. Go deeper, not as much as before. An awareness of the other things in the room semi-dissolving.
Very tired now. Open eyes, still an awareness that the things could easily semi-dissolve. Not sure where ‘I’ am.
Feel very calm and peaceful.
(I wonder, can I ‘call up’ this state of everything being semi-dissolved? Will try that later on.)
Stood up, thought.....it’s a state of unreality.
That’s all for today. Looking forward to hearing from you, and doing more, tomorrow.
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Good to read this :-)
Instead of it being a state of unreality, maybe it's simply not the reality you've been used to? What if something like this becomes the "new normal"? :-)
My sense is that you've very much loosened things up, that you are not automatically jumping to the conclusion about what something is or isn't. Brilliant!
As hilarious as it is, let's please go back to how it is you are not just separate from all else, but unique, the center of it all. Where is that unique thing in you, that you have, which serves as the basis for the world of forms constellating around you? Where does the rod plant itself on your end?
It might feel as if the rod pivots around on your sternum, keeping everything at a certain distance, with you reliably as the focus. Think of drawing an arc with that rod, creating a circle around yourself: everything focuses on you, because the rod is always pointing at you.
Please allow there to be a nominal distinction between you and, say, a chair. It's not about discerning that you are "not a chair" or whether you can be "one with the chair", but rather why the chair has to be an object, with you as the subject. Why not just be aware of you and chair on an equal footing as it were? Where is that thing in you that makes being the locus of what is happening possible or necessary?
Put another way, if you don't stay "out there" with the chair or whatever, what are you referring to when you refer back, and conclude that it's you the subject looking at the chair as an object?
Finally, when you consider the word "subject", what pops to mind as far as what it is, and what your experience of it is?
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Here are my ‘answers’/thoughts.
Instead of it being a state of unreality, maybe it's simply not the reality you've been used to? What if something like this becomes the "new normal"? :-) I did think about that after I had sent the email. ‘Unreality’ should perhaps have read ‘reality’.
My sense is that you've very much loosened things up, that you are not automatically jumping to the conclusion about what something is or isn't. Brilliant! Thank you. I have a good guide.
As hilarious as it is, let's please go back to how it is you are not just separate from all else, but unique, the center of it all. Where is that unique thing in you, that you have, which serves as the basis for the world of forms constellating around you? Nowhere, it is not to be found. Where does the rod plant itself on your end?
Imaginatively, mid point between navel and waist.
It might feel as if the rod pivots around on your sternum, keeping everything at a certain distance, with you reliably as the focus. Think of drawing an arc with that rod, creating a circle around yourself: everything focuses on you, because the rod is always pointing at you. OK but what if it is pointing away from me. Maybe I am on the outside of the circle, in which case I would be the object.
Please allow there to be a nominal distinction between you and, say, a chair. It's not about discerning that you are "not a chair" or whether you can be "one with the chair", but rather why the chair has to be an object, with you as the subject. Why not just be aware of you and chair on an equal footing I like that very much. I am very happy with it, and sometimes it feels as though it is beginning to happen. Where is that thing in you that makes being the locus of what is happening possible or necessary? Nowhere, not after all that looking and not finding anything, with both the no-self enquiry, and more recently. I don’t go for there being anything that makes me, or anything in me the locus/focus. Not either possible or necessary.
Put another way, if you don't stay "out there" with the chair or whatever, what are you referring to when you refer back, and conclude that it's you the subject looking at the chair as an object? If I do so conclude, it is all I know how to do, I can’t be in anyone else’s head. It’s a convention, a way of speaking. It doesn’t mean that I I believe myself or anything on me to be important, certainly not the centre of the universe. Of course, in Fairy Stories it’s not at all unusual for a chair, or a tree to speak, and offer advice, say. Probably children find that much easier to accept than adults do. Young children don’t seem to be fixed’
Finally, when you consider the word "subject", what pops to mind as far as what it is, and what your experience of it is? Well, I have studied some languages, including my own, so I immediately think, ‘The subject is what comes in front of the verb”. ‘The subject of the sentence’ is my experience of this word, nothing to do with any ‘me’ at all :-)
I did try to do some looking with shut eyes, as before, but I didn’t sleep very well last night, so soon as shut my eyes, I was nodding off. All I could do today was to look at some things in the room or outside, bearing in mind the boundaryless body, so that the things ‘softened’ round the edges. I try to do this as I potter about the house, though mostly it isn’t possible, due to other circumstances. I do what I can, as I’m sure you realise.
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You've looked and looked for where the sense of being a subject arises, and what is behind it or is the result of it, and found nothing. And yet, the sense of there being a subject/object persists, even though things are getting soft around the edges. Is that a fair summary? Just want to make sure where you're at.
If you don't find anything, then why do you allow a subject to form? Does it seems like something you allow, even out of habit?
Let's try a somewhat different angle. Please notice if and how things "stick" as what they are perceived to be. For example, if you recognize a "table", how long is it consciously a "table"? There will be an initial recognition of it, which lasts a few milliseconds or so as you recognize it's a table, but what happens after that? Does that recognition that it is a "table" persist without any effort, or is there something happening by which the recognition of a "table" can persist? For example, do you have to bring to mind the word "table" in order for it to stay as such in awareness? Is there that sense of "referring back" at all? Is it even possible to continuously have it in awareness?
Try this with a few mundane objects around the house: I look forward to hearing how it goes :-)
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Yes the first paragraph is a fair summary of where I’m at, though I would add that the sense of subject/object is a Lot less than it was. It feels as if that separation is now very tenuous.
No it doesn’t seem as if I allow it, ......wait, I will think about that.....
Last night,’ half asleep, I began to wonder about the Metta Bhavana. I didn’t want to get back into that with a subject giving Metta and someone receiving it. That felt quite wrong. I was going to ask you about it, but this morning, I had the opportunity to do a short metta practice, and spontaneously, the ‘people’ were not ‘over there’ but sitting in the same place as I was. That has happened occasionally in the past, but today it was very easy and natural. When I got to, say, teachers’, or, ‘friends’, that was trickier, but I grouped us all together, me as well, maybe holding hands in a circle.
At, ‘all beings’, I imagined every person, or creature, all together in a friendly huddle, with me in there, with them, not separate. This seems to be the way forward, do you agree?
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Yes, the nominal distinction between you, friend, difficult person etc. will always be possible, and good luck getting across the street if you don't differentiate between “me” and other things & people!
Rather, it's more a matter of the experience of “me” is always available, whilst everyone/everything else comes and goes. The tendency is to thus identify with that which is always available, and to give is a different category than everyone/everything else. That's when you "take form" as the subject, as contrasted with objects that aren't always there or noticeable. If instead you stepped back and said "OK, right now in experience there is a teapot, you, a cup, some tea and a chair and table. Yes indeed: that's precisely what is happening right now". You and the teapot are on the same footing, in the same category. :-)
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Aha! Got it. Thank you. And I will continue to look both ways before stepping off the pavement!! (sidewalk?)
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I’ll use your email again, to make my responses.
“If you don't find anything, then why do you allow a subject to form? Does it seems like something you allow, even out of habit? No, I’m sure I don’t, though it’d always possible it is super-subtle:-)
Let's try a somewhat different angle. Please notice if and how things "stick" as what they are perceived to be. For example, if you recognize a "table", how long is it consciously a "table"? There will be an initial recognition of it, which lasts a few milliseconds or so as you recognize it's a table, but what happens after that?
Does that recognition that it is a "table" persist without any effort,
I was thinking on those lines yesterday, certainly it persists, without any effort, no labelling, nothing.
or is there something happening by which the recognition of a "table" can persist? For example, do you have to bring to mind the word "table" in order for it to stay as such in awareness?
Absolutely not.
Is there that sense of "referring back" at all?
Not normally, no
Is it even possible to continuously have it in awareness?
Yes, I have been gradually more and more aware that this is happening with the various things, as I walk around the house. Also, there is a sense of lightness, which wasn’t there before.
I am not at all sure that I am still subjectifying. It seems to be Ok with me/teapot/table, equally.
Though I realise that separation may still be happening at a very subtle level. Something has definitely changed. However, the one about thoughts simply arising and falling away is not happening.
Whether I’m ‘there’ or not, I can’t say how much I appreciate what you are doing for me. It is a precious gift.
Meanwhile, I await whatever else you may have in store for me!
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OK, so as you look at say a table or teapot, please notice what information you use to recognize that thing. It's likely visual info mostly: also see what memories might be in play, perhaps you smell something. At any rate, please just note all of the info you use to conclude it is whatever it is.
Now, do the same for "me the Subject" or just "me", depending on how she seems at the moment :-) Again, what information do you use to determine that “I” am looking at the table or teapot? Likely visual and memory as well, but also physical sensations no doubt - perhaps all 6 senses are contributing?. At any rate, is that information, in principle at least, any different than the sort of information you use to recognize a table or teapot?
If the sort of information seems different, why is that?
If the sort of information is more or less the same, why would "I" be any more significant than "table" or "teapot"?
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OK, so as you look at say a table or teapot, please notice what information you use to recognize that thing. It's likely visual info mostly: also see what memories might be in play, perhaps you smell something. At any rate, please just note all of the info you use to conclude it is whatever it is.
Yes, mostly visual, some memory and previous experience. Presumably if I had advanced dementia I may not remember what a table is, but, as it is I recognise a table when I see one. Most likely my mother told me what it was!
Also, I do tend to touch things as I go by....No, not people..... So I know the table, bookcase, etc, are made of wood. Similarly, I can recognise the radiator, visually, but also, when I touch it, I recognise the metal feel of it, and the ridges in it. It may be cool to the touch, or, as now, too hot to touch it at all.
The leather settee is interesting, as the outer feel of it is soft and a bit squidgy, but I can feel the wooden framework underneath. This is pretty much the same as for “me”, soft and - mmm..not quite squidgy, but I can’t think of the appropriate word. Underneath that, in most places, it is possible to feel the bones.
Now, do the same for "me the Subject" or just "me", depending on how she seems at the moment :-) Again, what information do you use to determine that “me” is looking at the table or teapot? Likely visual and memory as well, but also physical sensations no doubt - perhaps all 6 senses are contributing?.
Yes, I recognise the face in the mirror, and she is wearing her clothes, and I also know those by the feel of them. If she has just used handcream, for example, I recognise the smell, as being her handcream. Likewise, when I hear the voice. I won’t go onto the other senses, as that would be stretching the ideas too far., but....
At any rate, is that information, in principle at least, any different than the sort of information you use to recognize a table or teapot?
.......no, there is no difference, in essence, between the information used .......
If the sort of information seems different, why is that?
If the sort of information is more or less the same, why would "she" be any more significant than "table" or "teapot"?
Clearly, she cannot be, and is not, any more significant than the table, settee, etc.
A few weeks ago, I would have expected this conclusion to be scary, but it is not, just the tiniest bit of -
- Ah, I recollect from previous ‘experiments’ - a bit of unsteadiness, as when the other things appeared to be shifting about. Yes, I feel that, though quite subtly.
This whole process is astonishing, not least because I do not feel at all diminished, but rather as though I have gained by it. As indeed I have😊 (This machine doesn’t care for :-) and often changes it.)
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As with seeing through the illusion of a separate "self", what is happening underneath continues to happen, the same processes continue to function. Therefore, when a given layer of illusion is stripped off, there can be a bit of disorientation at first, but the infrastructure necessary to continue on with daily life continues to chug along just fine.
With every paradigm shift, what remains is "the new normal". :-)
Please spend some time just observing what is happening, and seeing the extent to which you need to refer back as it were to a "me" in order to simply live life. If tea pouring is being done, does there have to be a subject “me” perceiving that, or can the knowledge/observation that tea is being poured be enough? What if you never referred back to check with a “me”: would that change anything? How does the phrase "in the seen, there is just the seen" strike you?
And as the urges/inclinations arise to check/refer back, again look for who or what is being referred back to. There may or may not be a particular sensation in the sternum: it's more of an experiential looking. Do you assume that there is something/someone there, or is there actually something/someone there?
If you look but do not find anyone/anything to refer back to, please silently intone the phrase "Wow - there's nothing there" a time or three: what does that do, if anything? And is this any different than intoning "Wow, there's nothing here"?
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With every paradigm shift, what remains is "the new normal". :-) Sounds good to me.
Please spend some time just observing what is happening, and seeing the extent to which you need to refer back as it were to a "me" in order to simply live life. If tea pouring is being done, does there have to be a subject “me” perceiving that, or can the knowledge/observation that tea is being poured be enough?
It is quite enough, though I had to think about not being on automatic pilot, which isn’t the same thing. When that happens, I am thinking about some other thing. When I think about pouring tea, that is simply pouring tea.
What if you never referred back to check with a “me”: would that change anything?
I don’t think that I do refer back to check with a “me”. Mmmm.....
If I never did, then there would only be - oh! - ‘in the tea pouring there is only the tea pouring’.
Wow!
How does the phrase "in the seen, there is just the seen" strike you?
As a highly desirable, very beautiful, and very moving ideal. In addition, I used to think it was unattainable by me, in this life. Wow again.
And as the urges/inclinations arise to check/refer back, again look for who or what is being referred back to. There may or may not be a particular sensation in the sternum: it's more of an experiential looking.
No sensation. I did note, with some items, that a thought arose, but that was more like an associated fact. Eg. Looking at the bookcase, I noticed a particular book, and thought, ‘My Dad gave me that’. Fact. No further thoughts or feelings happened.
Do you assume that there is something/someone there,
I must have done so previously, but once I began to really look into it, courtesy of you, then there was/is no such assumption.
Or is there actually something/someone there? Ha ha ha. A little green man perhaps!!
If you look but do not find anyone/anything to refer back to, please silently intone the phrase "Wow - there's nothing there" a time or three: what does that do, if anything?
Immediate reaction was tears. A sense of huge relief
And is this any different than intoning "Wow, there's nothing here"?
‘What here? Where? There isn’t anything here or there.’, was my immediate response.
At that point I began to worry about ‘here’/there’ and whether I was misinterpreting, so I got into a tangle. Been better if I had left well alone, eh?
Overall, living my life as I have been doing this last few days, feels a lot easier, a lot simpler, a lot ‘lighter’, in spite of some small disorientation, especially if I think about that sand mandala
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Brilliant! This really seems to be becoming clear :-)
What I'd like to do is turn you loose on your life for 24 hours, and ask you to report back on what you observe, see, reflect on, etc., without any particular questions or comments from me.
I look forward to reading what you write!
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Well that was interesting. Taking away all the times I was interacting with other people, concentrating on doing everyday jobs, reading a book, or watching snooker (!), I was enjoying an awareness of my surroundings, and feeling inwardly spacious wherever I was. If I thought about it at all, sort of ‘checking’ , there was no subject/ object happening. As you said, there was table, chair, “me”, book, cup of tea, all equal.
Last week I had wondered if this would only happen in the house, but, in the morning I drove out, a few streets away, and was delighted that the same things were evident. An awareness of other traffic, parked cars, trees, houses, “me”, the bread shop, with “me” feeling very content with things being the way they were. And, yes, I was looking where I was going😊
If this is the new ‘normal’, then I like it very much.
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I'm glad you like it very much! As with the "self", has it ever been any other way? Once you realize there's nothing to check back to, the checking back stops, and you just stay "out there".
So, in your own words:
- what is/was the subject?
- how do things "take form", and what does that offer or add to experience?
- can you get along without form?
- how is what is seen (table, thought, etc.) seen now, compared to say a month ago?
- what are boundaries?
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I was going to put,’ Dear Guide and Mentor’, which is true, but looks rather formal😊 I cannot believe this has happened, in such a relatively short space of time. Then again, it has been a very long time, in terms of experience, and change.
Here goes.....
I'm glad you like it very much! As with the "self", has it ever been any other way?
Probably not. I am just amazed that these astonishing shifts lead to a place which feels so ordinary, so normal. No fireworks, drums, trumpets, cheering crowds (!). It is just normal - well, now it is.
Once you realize there's nothing to check back to, the checking back stops, and you just stay "out there".
So, in your own words:
- what is/was the subject?
A perceived ‘me’, if not the centre of the universe, the centre of the room, house, street, etc. But now, that perception has completely gone, which is remarkable, since I didn’t know it was there.
- how do things "take form", and what does that offer or add to experience?
If I understand the question correctly, this was ‘me’ labelling, and/or referring back. Which made the experience fixed and rigid. I thought this morning, it was almost like an Me -vs-‘Them’, though again, I hadn’t been aware of that, until you showed me.
- can you get along without form? In the above sense, then, yes thanks, I can manage quite nicely.
- how is what is seen (table, thought, etc.) seen now, compared to say a month ago?
Now, the experience of living my life, being around ‘stuff’, is fluid and open, often spacious. ‘We’re all in this together’ rather than ....wait....it just came to me....before, a sense of isolation. Occasionally there is still a small sense of ‘shifting about’, as I settle into the new reality. I guess that happened to you too?
- what are boundaries?
Ha ha My initial reaction was , “Hey, what boundaries?”
I need to say that there is a tiny piece of me that is afraid this new state of being will not last, and so, as I potter about, I keep ‘testing’ so to speak, by looking, checking how it all appears, and how I feel. This small shift is actually Huge, and could take a while before I am settled into it. Then .....who knows, what else!!
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This all sounds very good :-) That it is very ordinary can simply be seen as the fact that this level of functioning was already in place but obscured, just as desire and ill will were in place but obscured by the "self".
I was going to suggest just that: take some time to let it settle in, and please keep me apprised of how it goes. By all means keep prodding and testing yourself: "is this sticking?"
The fetter is "craving for form", in that we crave the delineation of form, thus boundaries. The "form" you take is as subject, and everything is an object.
Perhaps watch how things might start out being recognized as whatever they are, and then watch what happens to that discerned thing. An analogy I might offer is that, with a laser printer, you can put the ink on the page, but without the toner, the ink just rubs off. The sand mandala/painting analogy might really fit as well.
At any rate, see how it goes!
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Excellent. I agree, give it some time to settle in is a good plan.
Thanks for everything you have done, your time, your patience, and your guidance, are all hugely appreciated.
I prefer the analogy of the sand mandala, and will bring it to mind as necessary, together with various other suggestions you have made along the way. Certainly I will let you know how I get on.
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This is an interim ‘check-in’. The other day, briefly, I was feeling that I was better before I took on the 6th fetter. Mmm. Concluded that was because I am used to the old way of being. Interesting.
Thursday I went into town. Was fine travelling on the bus, but once I was in the city, ....oh....big disorientation......possibly because I was in a bigger space, with more happening, and more people. Anyhow, it wore off after about an hour.
The really amazing thing which has happened, and I don’t grasp the connection with what I have been doing, needs a bit of background. I believe that, as a young child, I was frightened, one evening, when someone banged on the window of the room where I was, without the curtains being closed. Whatever it was, ever since then, I have been very uncomfortable being in a room at dusk or dark, with the curtains open. The other evening I was sitting with my partner, talking, reading, watching a bit of TV, looking out at the garden and the trees, all as usual. Time passed, and at one point I thought, “It’s nearly dark”.
Then it hit me. The curtains were wide open, and I hadn’t noticed. Where was the fear. What had happened??
I thought I would tell you this, and see what you make of it. A shift like this, at my age......
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Ah, "form" is what we do to things in the mind, giving them boundaries and separation, and also meaning and substance. Even abstract thoughts "take form". And of course, "we" take form, our central place in that world of form.
If you no longer see things as diametrical opposites as in "me and X", that comparative mindset and interpretation no longer prevails. It's not an open window which affects “me”, it's an open window and “me”, both momentarily in awareness and given equal status. There is also less or no inclination to make that distinction last, as with the sand mandala. So, dwelling on "how this affects me" dwindles. Being in the city the first time, with nothing "sticking" took an hour to get used to! :-)
Also, without desire/ill will as a lens, fear subsides. Accepting the way things are right now, we know we will accept it all five minutes from now too! Thus, no fear as to what might happen next. The curtains are open, it's nearly dark: so what? :-)
Hope this makes some sense?
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Yes it does, thank you so much. I assumed it was all connected, but I couldn’t quite grasp how and why.
What an adventure!
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Here I am, home after a pleasant and relaxing time with my friends.
There was no disorientation, simply an awareness of objects, and my surroundings, with no boundaries, no separation. I was able to just ‘be’ with whatever was around, and there was/is a sense of spaciousness, both inner and outer. Interestingly, I also became much more aware of my body, and its movements not to mention thoughts and feelings.
We meditated a few times, and once I stopped trying to ‘fix’ the Metta Bhavana into the same way as before, there was a huge openness, as if a huge spread of Metta was available to me, to everyone. I can’t find the correct words for what it was like, but, certainly, very different, very easy, and very deep.
When I’m responding to other people that feels even easier than before, almost as if I am coming from a different place. Ah! Well, I am coming from a different place.:-)
So, I am settling into this amazing new reality, and it is all due to you, dear guide and mentor.
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Good to read this :-) It sounds like it is becoming the "new normal", which is the way all paradigm shifts come to be seen. I very much resonate with your description of the metta practice and what responding to others is like.
The 6th fetter is the insistence that "form" is real, that you and all else are things which exist in a subject-object duality, with apparent boundaries between. “Form” means anything and everything that is distinct: a door, a memory about yesterday, whatever.
For purposes of a DP approach, a “subject” is apparently attested to by one or more “objects” that are habitually recognized. For example, if you pick an object, such as a door, the fact that you can discern a “door” is used to affirm “I the subject am seeing that door”.
I should say that the sense of "me" will almost certainly persist throughout this, so don't worry if the sense of "here" and "I" keep popping up. Rather than looking for that "I", as with desire, this is about something that "I have".
Let's jump right in: feel free to do all of these exercises a couple at a time and let me know what happens and what your experiences are :-)
1. As an exercise, pick an object in the room, such as a door. Look at it for a bit, and then close your eyes for a few seconds.
As you open your eyes again, notice how you take in the visual information and start to recognize it's a "door" again. Watch what happens next: where does that visual information go? Where is it processed? And how would you describe the "door recognition" process?
It may seem as if you are "looking back in experience" for the subject that is involved. Where is the information received, whereby it is interpreted as “door out there”?
It’s true, there is a "door" in awareness, but how and why is it an “object door” being viewed by a “subject”?
Where is the subject in all of this? What or who else is in awareness beside the door?
2. Next, please pick a thought about something that happened yesterday. As you take in the mental information, as the images, words and sounds rise and fall, where does that information go? Where is the subject that detects this information and knows this issue/memory is an object?
3. Now, go back to the door or whatever. Notice how it seems like there is an object being beheld by a subject. Where exactly is the boundary between subject and object?
4. Next, close your eyes, knowing the door is out there nearby: where is the boundary now?
5. Now close your eyes and consider again the memory from yesterday. If you the subject are discerning that thought/memory as an object, where exactly is the boundary between subject and object?
6. Finally, without the other person knowing what you’re doing, just go sit somewhere near someone, such that they are in your field of vision, but don’t engage them in anyway. Just two people sitting near each other. It could be in the meditation hall, or wherever. There’s no denying that the other person is there: no nihilism allowed! However, how and why is there an “object called person” as opposed to just “a person”? Again, where is the “subject” involved in this, such that there is an “object”?
I look forward to hearing how all this goes!!
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OK. It was a small blue stool I looked at…
As you open your eyes again, notice how you take in the visual information and start to recognize it's a "door" again. I did this three time. 1. I got, ‘It’s still there’ 2. ‘It’s blue’ 3. There were a couple of seconds before I labelled it. Watch what happens next: where does that visual information go? I remembered from previous experience. Where is it processed? In the brain (an assumption). And how would you describe the "door recognition" process? I know it’s a stool, I’ve seen it before.
It may seem as if you are "looking back in experience" for the subject that is involved. Yes, certainly, see above. Where is the information received, whereby it is interpreted as “door out there”? Mmm.. not the eyes. They just ‘see’. Thinking……….. I am back with the brain/the memory.
It’s true, there is a "door" in awareness, but how and why is it an “object door” being viewed by a “subject”? It’s out there and I’m in here…(Discomfort arises. And a sense that I’m trying to find answers in the brain but that isn’t where the answers are.)
Where is the subject in all of this? What or who else is in awareness beside the door? Me and Me again, but again there is discomfort, and I’m not entirely convinced. See No. 3 above, when there was only the stool in awareness, but that was so fleeting.
3. Now, go back to the door or whatever. Notice how it seems like there is an object being beheld by a subject. Where exactly is the boundary between subject and object?
There can’t be one. It isn’t possible for there to be a boundary, but it seems as though there is.
NB. I know perfectly well that the stool is still there, even when I am not looking at it, or aware of it.
I am beginning not to like this stool. Ha! Ha! Ha!
I expect that I will be thinking about all of this now for the rest of the day, and much longer.
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You're doing well :-) Some questions/suggestions:
If you can, wait a couple seconds again before labeling it, or a few more seconds if you can manage it: what is the experience of that?
Does it feel like to have to?
When it is labelled, it seems that happens in the brain. Where exactly? Say, within a quarter inch or so? And if it seems like a memory is in play, where exactly is that?
Can you recognize a “stool” without any reference to something “in here”?
And rather than telling yourself there can’t be a boundary, how can you know for sure?
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Oh, very good.......I’ll work on these ideas/questions. Last night, as I was falling asleep, I was ‘looking’ at dozens of objects, and saying, “That’s not separate from me....” But I didn’t believe it!
More anon.
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OK, look forward to hearing how it goes.
Instead of asserting they are not separate, see how they are apparently separate, really look: what supports are in place such that you conclude they are :-)
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I feel as though all I have to offer are false trails and red herrings, but best to get those out of the way, eh?
Today I looked for longer, and kept my eyes shut for longer also. I went through this initial process twice.
After I opened my eyes it felt like much longer before any labelling occurred, and in that space it didn’t much matter if the stool was labelled or not. After a few seconds I was aware, somewhere, that it was a stool. Just ‘a stool’ with no reference to being out there or in here. It just was. Of course, that state didn’t last!
I loved your questions about ‘where exactly’ in the brain.....’a quarter of an inch’..? So much inner laughter arises when I look at that phrase, it’s ridiculous. And, of course I can’t find any labelling in the brain. No doubt because it isn’t there. I realise that I have been here before with other investigations, in that I know there isn’t any such labelling, nor any boundaries....But..........I don’t know it from direct experience. Not yet.
At that point, I was interrupted.
Later, after tea, gazing at the teapot I was thinking - there isn’t a boundary, I only perceive one.......ah! it’s that ‘in the brain’ thing again which crept up on me. Mmmm I know it’s a teapot, because of past experience.........ah...isn’t that ‘memory’ again? I know it’s a teapot because everybody says so....Well, fat lot of good that is!
Back to boundaries.....Teapot, and me, and everything are just a bunch of molecules, according to physics......and when I touch the teapot an slight exchange of molecules occurs...therefore.. no boundaries...............so why do I see the teapot/stool as separate?
I only tell you of my musings. I will have another go tomorrow. Do you think it best to keep with the same questions, or try some of the others from you initial response?
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This all sounds good so far :-) It's a different sort of approach than desire, by necessity...
Go over as before, and try these as well:
1. As you move about, or cast your gaze about, every time something new is recognized (door, wall, tree, person, book, etc.), try looking for what might feel like a "quick look back" in experience. There might be the instantaneous recognition of whatever it is, and then a referring back to someone/something, perhaps it will feel as if it's in your head, heart center, etc., by which you'll quickly affirm "yes, that's a tree, and this is me looking at it". After this quick look, your awareness will likely go back to the tree.
2. However, if you stare at something long enough, there will likely be a recurring "look back" just to make sure. So, pick something and just stay on it for a bit, and watch as attention shifts from subject to object. How much time is spent on the object, and how much time is spent (roughly) referring back at all?
3. Then, as an exercise, see how long you can stay "out there" with an inanimate object, and not refer back in any way to yourself at all. In the seen, just the seen, as it were. At first, you might only last a few seconds, but you'll get better at it. What is your experience of this???
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In the morning I had an interesting time looking at a door. It occurs to me that my ‘report’ and you response are out of synch, due to the difference in time zones. I thought if I keep back what I wrote down yesterday,
Do the looking and thinking today, in the light of your latest comments, then send both lots together.
I must say that I am quite enjoying getting to grips with this, and not feeling the fear I felt with the desire/ill will is a huge bonus. I am already doing a form of what you suggest at #1: it happens spontaneously, so I will refine that in the light of your advice.
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Sounds good - I look forward to hearing how it all goes.
We'll get a bit more focused, but I think it's good that you're exploring all the different ways in which the world of form is seen :-)
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Here is a double dose for you, it doesn’t feel very focused at all, particularly today when I don’t feel ‘on the ball’. Still, that will change, thank goodness. I feel as though I am not engaging the way I believe you would like me to, and that isn’t comfortable. Be better if I stopped second guessing, eh?
Tuesday: A door. We don’t consciously label. We know it is a door (think I’ve been at this point before). It felt fine not labelling. There was no need. The thought arises that it is much easier to envisage non-separation from a person, or the cat than an inanimate object. Door is harder than a stool or a teapot...mmm
Why? Am I looking for sameness/differences? No. Must remember this is about non separation, so easy to get side-tracked.
Looked at the door again.....Didn’t label it. No need. The door is what it is.......an object (Ah!) back to separation.
Then tried No. 2 on your first email. A memory. OK......what was that....thoughts of a past event....mental activity.
(I wasn’t conscious of a ‘me’ thinking that, it simply arose.) Where does that get me? Nowhere.
Didn’t feel like subject/object felt as if the memory were a part of me, not a separate entity. Not out there, just thoughts, arising and departing.
Tried No. 4 on the same email. No boundary. Just thoughts of the door. Just that.
So, I conclude that non-separation is easier inside the mind, as it were, that when looking at a concrete object or person.
Very interesting.
(I was reminded that I have occasionally experienced a brief non-separation of self and another person when deep in the Metta Bhavana. That felt perfectly natural.)
Wednesday at home.
A chair, then a door.
Am finding this harder today. Am restless, and kept trying different objects, until I settled down a bit.
Didn’t get the ‘referring back’ at first. Now, I wonder if it is when I look at an object and begin to think about when it was acquired, and the circumstances. Maybe I’m not delving deep enough, as mostly referring back didn’t happen, it was as if on automatic pilot. Is this a good thing? Or not? Maybe I’m trying too hard? Trying to put ‘stuff’ there which wasn’t really there? Seems to be an instant recognition, with no need to label. A ‘knowing’ in the brain?
When I wasn’t referring back to self at all, it felt very calm - very ‘right’ - that is as it is.........(I had another thought here, but I lost it!)
Do I really do, ‘that is chair/door/etc., and this is me looking at it? Not consciously ‘Making’ it conscious seems to separate even more, whereas when I ‘just noticed’ there didn’t seem to be any ‘me’ Not that I was aware of.....
I feel a bit lost....maybe I am trying to sort out what I’m Not trying to do before I can focus on what I AM trying to do?
Best of luck with sorting out this rigmarole!
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No worries - this all sounds good. You're not lost from what I read - I did give you a lot of things to try out :-)
That you've had a sense of non-separateness in the metta bhavana, and that it felt right, is good to know.
And yes, as you look at something, and you start to think about it, when and how you acquired it: consider that you've already "objectified" it. As you say, there is an instant recognition: why do you need more than that, such that you go on to thinking about the teapot or whatever? Does that make it more real?
Please try a few more modest sessions of staying "out there" with something, and focus on that feeling/sense of calm and "this is right". Pick one thing, or a few things. Why would you stray from that calm point? Does it feel as if there is a part of you that needs to step forward, be seen, be accounted for... why not just stay "out there" for an hour? Is there something that comes into play somewhere in you? If so, what and where exactly is it?
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Here are some more bits. Rather incoherent I’m afraid. Also I haven’t yet got to grips with everything you suggested.
This stuff is very difficult to capture, and then put into words, but you know that. Currently I feel as though I am groping about in the dark, trying to find something which keeps moving away!
Large candle
Thought, rather than felt,……”the self-reference/subject comes back to ‘me’ which doesn’t exist…..but it feels as though it does.”
Am aware of very subtle mental shiftings around……then…”I don’t want it to be separate”…..slight discomfort arises, as before.
…Felt rather than thought, “It’s only separate because I think it is”……
The more I look, the more the mental ‘boundary’ blurs.
Blue stool
….Look…relax into it….”It is unlovely” (and separate from me….(I’m getting a forehead headache at that point…))
…That’s a Very subjective thought (and so was ‘pretty’ re. the chair, earlier)
Not yet clear about how/where looking for the subject occurs. Feels as though I almost have it, then it slides away again… Maybe I just need to spend more time with these new pointers……obviously, whatever you think…..
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(Later)
“Large candle......
1. One bit of back-referral.
2. No back ref., but background prattle in the mind, noting to do with the candle.
3. Remembered to relax into the looking....just looked....calm and pleasant to be doing this.
The more I relax, it seems as if there is less separation. Maybe I need to check that out?
The stool
Yes, the more I relax, the easier this exercise is, and it doesn’t feel as though I am pushing the stool away.
It is there, and I look at it, calmly, easily....(5 minutes) Could keep this up for even longer. The mental prattle is very small now. Unfortunately, I am tired and not too well, so concentration wanders, but no labelling, no self ref at all. The idea of stool/”me” not being separate no longer seems an impossibility.”
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A nuance would be that you're already looking at the supposed "proof" of a subject, all the objects (i.e., the door, the books). It's not that you're trying to find the proof, but rather your trying to find what it is those things ostensibly prove exists.
So, that's great that you can stay "out there" with objects, for quite a period of time!
What I'd like you to do now is to allow the referring back to occur, perhaps in a slow or controlled manner if possible, and as that self-referring starts up, look for what is being referred back to.
Also please notice to what extent there seems to be a separation or boundary being established, if the sense of that arises.
However, the thing to look for is what is being referred to when self-reference arises, that makes the duality possible.
If the duality sets up before you can do any looking, try to allow it to soften by staying "out there" with the object, and then try it again. Or, pick something else in the room if that helps.
Try it a few times to get the hang of what this "gap" looks like and how/where the looking for the subject occurs.
It's just like looking for a "self" or "desire and ill will", only the next layer of subtlety down.
I look forward to hearing how this goes!!
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I had a go this morning, and really want to do more, but my partner had a change of plans which affected me, which had a knock on effect.
It may be possible to look again later on, but I wanted to get this off now. I wrote my notes onto Word, so have attached them. Maybe if you don’t respond until you see if there is more today?
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It's not clear from what you wrote, but I assume that you were staying "out there" with those objects, then came inside with them as it were? A suggestion is that, as soon as you feel you're the least bit "in here", let go of the object and look for where that visual information was on its way to, what is to be compared to. As such, closing your eyes at that moment will likely be helpful, and leaving them shut as you look.
It may feel like the subject is in a particular portion of the body, such as the breastbone or somewhere. Or, a particular location may not seem apparent.
Feel free to open your eyes and peek at the object to keep the sense of referring back alive.
Another way to look at it is that, in referring back, you are validating or even establishing the subject. It might even feel satisfying or reassuring to do so. What did you just validate or establish, that you weren't aware of a moment ago??
If thoughts about "that's his chair", or really any thought at all, try to let that go, since you've likely objectified whatever it is at that point. If so, as you did, move on to something else :-)
Why is it not just a thing, but that thing in relation to me the subject?
I look forward to hearing how this goes!
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Thank you -this looks to be very helpful. And, yes, I was staying ‘out there’ then coming inside, sorry I didn’t make that clear.
I am sure that shutting my eyes will be a great help.
I do admire your guiding technique, especially as you don’t always have much to go on from me. :-)
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Here it is, full of confusion and some doubts......
Oh, your last line, “Why is it not just a thing.....etc.” At the moment it feels as though me/the subject keeps on putting myself in the way. Oh, those beautiful, simple words, “In the seen only the seen.....”, and how hard it is to do it!
Small upright chair.
I am armed with notebook and a copy of your email, and aim to take this a bit at a time.
The self-reference kicked in almost at once, but I noted it down as it seemed revealing.
- We bought this chair ages ago because it is so pretty……..fine……that doesn’t separate, but
- It my partner’s violin chair…….separates immediately…they are separate…therefore ‘their ‘ chair is also. Interesting…maybe too much association with this one, more than I had realised when I began to look at it. Better leave this one.
- Recollected the place we bought it from. We know the owner of the shop, and there are pleasant associations….as if those are part of the table…and those memories are part of me…..
- Also we use this table every morning, when we have our informal breakfast. This feels to be a part of my life, of me….table an extension of me almost. There were other, more subtle responses, but they were gone before I could catch them
Will try again later on, trying to get the hang of a ‘gap’….
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This sounds good :-) Go ahead and label it as "chair", "shed" or whatever: thinking about how and why it is a shed or whatever, and the mental associations you have, is another thing.
There is a settee and a human (who goes by my name) in all this, no doubt about it! Why does it have to be a "settee out there" viewed by a "subject in here"?
What in you, and where, provides and maintains the persisting form and separation of the settee out there?
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Thanks for that. It’s good to know that I am moving on the right track. Unfortunately today, after a lot of essential shopping, etc., I have run out of steam, but - tomorrow looks good. The beauty of all this ‘work’ is that even when not really, really, concentrating, I can be thinking about it while engaging in everyday life, and who knows what might happen?
More anon.
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This sounds good :-) Go ahead and label it as "chair", "shed" or whatever: thinking about how and why it is a shed or whatever, and the mental associations you have, is another thing.
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Here is today’s report - I think part of it will make you laugh!
“What in you, and where, provides and maintains the persisting form and separation of the settee out there? “
OK Habit, upbringing, the persistent voice of ‘ordinary’ logic/common sense. I know, conceptually that the Reality is different….
Striped chair
I went through the looking twice, but have reported it all in one.
Look….shut eyes…etc.. go in as deep as I could. Found the place of discomfort ( the gap?) stayed in it with the chair. Discomfort seems to be because I don’t want this separation. Every really deep experience I have had points to non-duality, which makes perfect sense……but…
Looking, I find no reason whatever why this nice chair should be separate from me.
But, again, I don’t believe it……… I feel a battle going on, and I have been there before, with the desire/illwill………the tension between ‘yes it is’, and ‘no it isn’t’.
Sit in striped chair (!) look at the armchair.
Looked, etc. as before. Chair and me floating down/along, quite happy together. Asked, “Why are we separate then?”. Got a very faint answer, “But we’re not”….then immediately lost that and came back into the room.
I want to kick something!!
Generally I feel disturbed, and even more uncomfortable.
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Ha! Don't kick the chair too hard - it's part of the dialogue now!! :-)
1. As the separation comes up, or even if it simply persists, please ask yourself: what is separate from the chair? Again, not a conceptual exercise, but looking for the thing in you that is the locus or focal point of "I'm here" as opposed to "chair there". Sure, there are lots of habitual ways of thinking, conventional ways of talking about what is currently happening, but feel free to set those aside. If the chair is out there, what is in here that recognizes and validates that "out-there-ness"?
2. When the separation is noticed, what seem to be between you and the object? A rod of some sort, as with a compression shower curtain rod? An invisible wall? An insulating blanket? What seems to isolate you from the object?
3. Imagine pouring various colors of sand onto a horizontal canvas, making a Tibetan mandala, a picture of tree, or whatever. If you don't somehow fix the sand to the canvas, say with glue of some sort, when you tilt it up, everything simply slides back off.
With this in mind, please close your eyes. As you take in the canvas of all the thoughts and appearances on the stage of the mind, allow one thought to arise, whatever it is: what you did yesterday, something that needs to be done tomorrow, whatever comes up.
As that thought arises, what in you acts as the glue, fixing the issue into awareness for however long you might think about it, such that it is "that thought"? What in you responds as the thought first starts up, when it's still in the unlabeled word/image stage, that isolates it, gives it form, and allows you to recognize "ah, that thought/memory/issue"?
It might feel as if something in you reaches out to recognize or validate it, or that the information streams into you, such that it can be recognized and validated. Whatever the process seems to be (what does it seem to be??), What in you seems to be participating, and where is it?
Otherwise, without this thing/process taking place, the words and images would simply rise and fall with sticking, without being thought about or prolonged at all.
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In the early hours of the morning I thought, “It’s like clearing out a cupboard, throw out the habitual ways of being, the left-over ideas from conditioning, etc., and what you have left is Nothing!” However, that hasn’t yet percolated to the inner parts of me...
Thanks........More anon
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Yes, a cupboard with several layers of conceptualized stuff as it were, cleaned out until nothing remains :-)
Look forward to hearing how things are going!
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I pondered over your email, and would like to explore all this for at least another day, probably more, with no further imput from you, if that’s OK with you. I no longer feel cross, confused, or disturbed, which is a bonus. Now I am feeling excited, and determined! Some of my comments are below, some other few in the attachment.
1. As the separation comes up, or even if it simply persists, please ask yourself: what is separate from the chair? Again, not a conceptual exercise, but looking for the thing in you that is the locus or focal point of "I'm here" as opposed to "chair there". Sure, there are lots of habitual ways of thinking, conventional ways of talking about what is currently happening, but feel free to set those aside. If the chair is out there, what is in here that recognizes and validates that "out-there-ness"? I am becoming less sure that there is a separation......but there is nothing, how can there be? (conceptually so far)
2. When the separation is noticed, what seem to be between you and the object? A rod of some sort, as with a compression shower curtain rod? An invisible wall? An insulating blanket? What seems to isolate you from the object? NO, nothing like that. More like a ..mmm.....Impossible to say, especially as it has got more subtle
3. Imagine pouring various colors of sand onto a horizontal canvas, making a Tibetan mandala, a picture of tree, or whatever. If you don't don't somehow fix the sand to the canvas, say with glue of some sort, when you tilt it up, everything simply slides back off. BRILLIANT
· As that thought arises, what in you acts as the glue, fixing the issue into awareness for however long you might think about it, such that it is "that thought"? What in you responds as the thought first starts up, when it's still in the unlabeled word/image stage, that isolates it, gives it form, and allows you to recognize "ah, that thought/memory/issue" Sorry, Can’t do this yet
· It might feel as if something in you reaches out to recognize or validate it, or that the information streams into you, such that it can be recognized and validated. Whatever the process seems to be (what does it seem to be??), What in you seems to be participating, and where is it? So, I haven’t got this far.
· Otherwise, without this thing/process taking place, the words and images would simply rise and fall with sticking, without being thought about or prolonged at all. This sounds like a big, scary, hugely liberating state. Just wait for me to get there!
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Here is today’s report - I think part of it will make you laugh!
Piano stool
Looked, as before…shut eyes….was at once in the floating -about -together space. This time, stool & I were tumbling around each other & I could touch the leathery top of the stool. Didn’t feel either separate or not separate. It just was.
Door
As before….was perfectly happy in freefall with the door as my companion. No words, no thoughts, no feeling of separation, or not.
So, your NO. 3. Love the sand mandala image and can see that it will be a very powerful tool.
Your 1st bullet point……OK..did that…but
Yr. 2nd bullet point…ah!..... yet able to be at the place where the thought first starts up, so couldn’t go further. This will certainly need much more practice, which is fine with me.
Tried this 3 or 4 times. I understand the general idea, but am not quite there yet.
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OK, I will just say "keep going!" :-)
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After yesterday’s rather low key report, I just want to say that I made a definite shift in the right direction. It was last night, between waking and sleeping (again). Can’t say more, as I am going out for the day.
Thought you would like to know that all is not at a standstill! But don’t hold your breath.....
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OK, but will take short, shallow breaths nonetheless :-)
Look forward to hearing how things are shifting.
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Oh, yes, please keep breathing!
So, last night, thinking about what you had said, when another thought arose, I rewound it slightly, and then looked at it. Did this quite a few times, and observed that the pre-thought was almost always in the form of a picture, which then triggered off whatever. Sometimes it was a feeling, mid body, followed by the thought and expansion of the thought.
It seemed as if there was a grabbing/grasping from within the body, not yet clarified exactly where. At that point the picture, etc. became ‘solid’, and felt recognised/ validated. During this time, and behind it as it were, there was an awareness of the sand mandala, so there was a sensation of thoughts/feelings shifting about, being un-fixed. The sensation was clear, and not unpleasant.
Just before I actually fell asleep, it seemed that I had seen something which I can work on, explore more deeply.
Perhaps, at some stage catching the pre-thought will become more the norm, but I am speculating here.
OK. THE question, ‘What is in me ....’, or first of all, ‘why is there a need to validate?’. Mmm......there isn’t any need to do that, there isn’t any point. An example:- A picture of the other women in the Tuesday morning study group at the Centre came to mind. That was enough, but what happened was that I then thought, “I have to go to the Centre tomorrow....and.....and...”
What in me...?” There can’t be a ‘what’ or a ‘thing’. That doesn’t make sense, there can’t be any such ‘thing’ sitting inside my body, or mind. There can’t be any such mechanism. OK OK I know, WHY does it happen then, when there is nothing there. Do ‘I’ construct these thoughts? Why? To make ‘me’ feel better?? What do I mean by that?
Now I have got myself lost............
That’s the best I can do so far. I did appreciate you saying OK, go ahead, but of course that was before I managed to unravel some bits where I was stuck. What do you think? As you know, I am quite happy to keep repeating the same ‘exercises’, or whatever my guide thinks is best.
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Yes, it generally starts in the form of a mental picture, which could solidify into a "thing" or simply evaporate. I like the term "pre-thought" :-)
An analogy is the toner in a laser printer, which fixes the ink to the paper. If you're out of toner, the ink is placed where it should on the paper, and you can see "letters" on the page, but a simply brush of the hand smears it beyond recognition.
And yes, it's that grabbing/grasping, [perhaps reaching out our sense of something rebounding inside, that allows that thought to "take form", to start to have boundaries. And yes, it can become the norm, and not in a disorienting or unpleasant way. (spoiler alert - that's what's happening anyway...)
As the pre-thought goes from an image to a "thing with form", is there a sensation or set of sensations that you notice, perhaps on your sternum, front of the head, etc.? It might feel like something is pushing at you in order to provide some separation between you and this new object. Or, it may seem as if that is were the grasping has its foundation, as if a stepping stone were being relied upon in order to reach out towards this new thing, even if it is just a thought on the stage of the mind.
It's one thing for there to be a perceived separation between you and the object, and another to be aware of what seems to be happening in you that allows and causes that separation to be set up and maintained. The inquiry/dialog is about that second aspect, what and where in you that separation is found(ed).
So, the question I'm asking in this rambling email is: where is the incipient and maintained separation based, and what is actually there at that spot?
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Just to acknowledge that I have read this one - several times. I am reminded of a friend of mine, who, if she had read this, would have said, “It does my head in”........Exactly!
Right.......Back to work.
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OK. Here goes....... from my notes......” Being wide awake, I revisited the ‘technique’ which had occurred when I was half-asleep. Visualised/imagined an object in my mind, if the thought came too quickly I re-wound to get to the pre-thought. Tried to relax more, as when half-asleep I was extremely relaxed.
Yes, sensation in sternum area. Yes, a reaching* outwards, rather than leaving the object alone or letting it go.
(*Not in the sense of ‘I want it’ - or, I don’t think so....) Sometimes thoughts didn’t arise, or hardly. Sometimes sensation very subtle indeed, only a tiny flicker. Kept bringing the sand mandala to mind.
I begin to see how the previous stages of our dialogue have led to this point........
I am doing at good job of not answering the question! Mmm..........(what) and where in me?..
Silly answer -in the sternum. No, of course not, and I can say why not but it’s irrelevant.
The other answer, which isn’t off the top or slick, but arrived at, almost reluctantly, is, Nowhere, there isn’t anything. There is definitely a shifting happening. I feel as if the stone I was standing on is wobbling a lot. More subtle than that, but there are no suitable words. The sense of slipping and sliding is not unpleasant - yes it is, but not too much so, and it feels right, somehow...Don’t know what I am talking about. Don’t know anything....
Also, there is a slowly growing feeling that there isn’t any separation in any case - well, less and less....
I have to get back to the ordinary world now, which is a shame.”
Afterwards, I was in a not-quite-normal space in my head, for nearly an hour, which was odd, but OK.
Now, I can still feel this, but much more subtly.
Look forward to your reply.
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OK, a little disorientation is par for the course :-)
This all sounds good: perhaps try it again, and really zero in on where the subtle sensation is felt in the sternum, and look for what is providing any sort of resistance, reflection or other processing/interpretation of the incipient mental picture.
Also, please try the following:
1. Sitting down and closing your eyes, locate individual parts of your body, such as ankle, knee, elbow, ear, etc. How do you know where they are? Having done a particular part, feel free to peek and see what the difference is with and without the visual faculty in play.
2. Now focus on the boundary of your body, mostly skin but a few other bits too :-) Try to locate in your experience where exactly that boundary is: how is it that you know? Is it memory? Sensation? How is it that you know where your body is and isn't?
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Today I am disappointed, but I suppose that some falling off is to be expected sometimes...sigh...
I have had a very hectic day, people calling round, people ringing up, etc..which didn’t help my state of mind - Excuses....
This all sounds good: perhaps try it again, and really zero in on where the subtle sensation is felt in the sternum, HA. I COULD HARDLY FIND ANY SENSATION AT ALL NEVER MIND SUBTLE, OR ZERO IN. I TRIED TWICE, WITH AN INTERVAL BETWEEN, BUT NO GOOD. I THOUGHT I HAD BETTER NOT TRY TO FORCE IT AT ALL, EVEN IF I COULD HAVE. BETTER TOMORROW I HOPE. and look for what is providing any sort of resistance, reflection or other processing/interpretation of the incipient mental picture.
GOT ON BETTER WITH THE NEXT PARTS. THERE IS SOME REPETITION HERE, AS I THRESHED IT OUT, THINKING OF DIFFERENT ASPECTS.
Also, please try the following:
1. Sitting down and closing your eyes, locate individual parts of your body, such as ankle, knee, elbow, ear, etc. How do you know where they are? Having done a particular part, feel free to peek and see what the difference is with and without the visual faculty in play.
SURPRISINGLY, I DIDN’T KNOW WHERE THE BODY PARTS WERE IS I WASN’T LOOKING. IF MY HAND OR FOOT WAS TOUCHING THE SEAT OR FLOOR, YES, THEN I KNEW, BUT OTHERWISE NOT. I AM TRUSTING THAT MY EARS ARE STILL IN PLACE BUT WITHOUT LOOKING, OR TOUCHING, I CAN’T TELL.
WHEN I OPEN MY EYES, AND SEE MY HAND, FOR INSTANCE, I SEE LOTS OF DETAIL THAT I DIDN’T/COULDN’T IMAGINE WITH MY EYES CLOSED. THERE WAS JUST A VAGUE IDEA OF WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE, NOT AT ALL LIKE THE VISUAL PICTURE.
2. Now focus on the boundary of your body, mostly skin but a few other bits too :-) Try to locate in your experience where exactly that boundary is: how is it that you know? Is it memory? Sensation? How is it that you know where your body is and isn't?
BOUNDARY.....AGAIN, WITH THOSE BODY PARTS TOUCHING FLOOR OR CHAIR I KNEW BY THE SENSATION WHERE THE BOUNDARY WAS. OR, I COULD FEEL CLOTHING TOUCHING ARMS OR LEGS, BUT ON REFLECTION THAT DIDN’T ACTUALLY INDICATE ANY BOUNDARY, OR WHAT THOSE PARTS/ THAT BOUNDARY IS LIKE. WITH EYES SHUT, I MIGHT HAVE ONE HUGE LEG AND ONE SMALL ONE, BUT I DON’T ACTUALLY know.
MEMORY, OR THINKING THAT I KNOW DOESN’T WORK, SINCE I COULD BE SIMPLY IMAGINING A BOUINDARY. WHERE I AM WEARING A HEAVY CARDIGAN OVER A BLOUSE THERE IS NO QUESTION OF KNOWING WHERE MY BODY IS, UNDER ALL THOSE THINGS!
IT SEEMS THAT WHEN I MOVE AROUND MESSAGES FROM MY BRAIN STOP ME BUMPING INTO THINGS (MOSTLY) WHICH DOESN’T MEAN THAT I KNOW WHERE MY BODY IS. IF I COULD CHANGE SHAPE AT WILLMI WOULDN’T KNOW WHAT THAT LOOKED LIKE WITHOUT LOOKING. RAIN, WIND OR SUN MAY TOUCH MY BODY IF I AM OUTSIDE BUT - WAIT - THOSE SENSATIONSI WOULD INDICATE WHERE THOSE PARTS OF THE BODY WAS, BUT NOT ANY ACTUAL BOUNDARY. I WOULD FEEL THE RAIN, BUT I STILL WOULDN’T KNOW IF MY FACE WAS BIG, SMALL, UGLY, PRETTY, OR ANYHTING ELSE.
WALKED AROUND THE HOUSE AND KNEW WHERE MY BODY WAS IN THE SENSE OF IN THE KITCHEN, BEDROOM, ETC. BUT AGAIN, I WASN’T AWARE OF ANY BOUNDARY UNLESS I USED MY EYES.
I hope you aren’t too disappointed. Tomorrow is another day, eh?
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OK, this all sounds good. No worries if the sensation on the sternum isn't there.
The exercise I had you do is how I often help people access the first formless sphere/jhana, which helps disassemble whatever "form" you have currently taken :-) It inquires into your notion of "space" and where you place things (like a "body) in that mental space. When inquiring into the nature of form, it can help clear the decks as it were, to a temporary state where no dualistic forms are really being recognized. No worries that it didn't "stick" or anything: the intent was to get a sense of how you create and locate "things" in the first place, such that you can them create a duality out of two of them (you and whatever you're looking at or thinking about). The formless spheres are also a very natural state, that will simply arise during deep sessions of the mindfulness of breathing: they are what "happens" as you relax the mental processing that normally persists. Hope that isn't too abstract?
As you get time on Friday, please go back and try the basic exercise again: closing your eyes, watch as some mental picture of whatever thought/issue starts to "take form", and try to stay "out there" such that it more or less stays just an incipient mental image. Then, allow the separation to start up, and instead of focusing on the thought/image, look for what it is in you that is participating in this separation process, what is being referred to, relied upon or anchored to, such that the separation into subject and object is possible. The sensation in the sternum may or may not arise, but no worries: you're looking for what in you recognizes the thought/issue and provides a basis for being a subject in opposition to that mental object.
Also, with eyes open, try looking at whatever in the room such as a vase, and allow it to be "out there", and ask yourself: "why? why does this have to be an object, and me the subject? What can't it just be a vase?"
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OK. Thank you. When I do meditate, and I’m not doing so currently, I do the Brahma Viharas, but, that deep formless state is familiar to me from those meditations, especially the end of the 5th stages.
Thanks for the encouragement. It isn’t true to say that this investigation is taking over my life,
as much of that is in ‘neutral’ gear, or my head is full of what is happening, who is with me, etc. BUT
Any quiet spaces I have, then I am mostly thinking about various aspects of the enquiry, and coming back to the basic question.....what in me......?
I’ll let you how I get on later today.
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OK, this all sounds good. No worries if the sensation on the sternum isn't there.
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Looking and looking and not finding a darn thing!
First set, all with closed eyes.
1. Hedge cutters (my partner is outside, busy) - rushed straight into story time.
2. Box of books which arrived yesterday - even worse, I was instantly grabbing, “I want, “I want”. Drop that one.
3. ‘My’ chair outside....oh dear - grabbing - ‘me’ and ‘mine’. Drop that one. (I am learning what won’t do though.)
4. The well-known blue stool. Looked at its ‘blue-stoolness’. Thoughts and stories arose. This time, kept winding back, and looking looking.....sensation now in upper abdomen, ignored it.....wound back....looked at blue stool again, held it for a time, distractions arose......looked behind the thoughts...looked...looked...’What in me?’
- A flash of headache - am I trying too hard?...........Got into story time again....
Relax, see what arises....stories....ah! A special stone in the garden. Looked, lost it, looked at it ‘out there’. Strong abdominal sensation arose, might be frustration. Wait until that calmed down, looked, looked at the pre-thought,, ‘Why does this separation happen - What do I do?’. It’s as if this story teller grabs onto chair/stone, whatever and makes stories about them, and in so doing, objectifies them.
5. Lady at garden centre ‘came up’, held it, looked at ‘her’, no sensation at all, but was drawn towards her, in a mettaful way. Stories arose. Rewind. Held the image. Conscious that she and I are not separate, why do I thionk we are?....Look for whatever it is, look, look.
All I can say is that when I go looking for the ‘What...’ there is beginning to be space around that, though subtle. (For what it’s worth!)
Now with eyes open. Reading lamp
I am perfectly happy for it to be just a lamp. What stops it? If anything?......Very briefly did the ‘I don’t know where my body is’ while bearing the lamp in mind. Felt, rather than thought, that, if I don’t have a boundary, then the lamp doesn’t either. Had to stop there.
Well, you did say, “extremely subtle” didn’t you? What next I wonder.
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With the lady in the garden, seeing that you're not really separate, and space starting to open up around this looking: that's the right direction :-)
If you keep looking but don't find anything, why is there a separation? What is the basis for your interpretation that there is separation?
Please try this: as you visually look at something across the room imagine a tether or rod that connects you and that object, which keeps a constant distance between you and the object. It runs form the object to you the subject. Where does is fasten to/in you, which provides the base or receiver for that rod? Please look for the exact point where that rod makes contact.
Curious - why did you have to stop when feeling that if you don't have a boundary, neither does the lamp? That would be a great place to linger and allow that to sink in a bit...
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If you keep looking but don't find anything, why is there a separation? What is the basis for your interpretation that there is separation? Habit, conceptual belief, etc....but all that is now wearing thin, or so my emotions tell me.
Please try this: as you visually look at something across the room imagine a tether or rod that connects you and that object, which keeps a constant distance between you and the object. It runs form the object to you the subject. Where does is fasten to/in you, which provides the base or receiver for that rod? Please look for the exact point where that rod makes contact. Ah! BIG emotional response of No No here. It feels gross, I don’t like it AT ALL. Is there an alternative, something softer perhaps?
Curious - why did you have to stop when feeling that if you don't have a boundary, neither does the lamp? That would be a great place to linger and allow that ti sink in a bit... Sorry, I should have made that clear. My partner came in at that point, worn out from the gardening, telling me all that he had done, and so on. The spell was broken!
I want to try and get to the same or similar point as yesterday, with the lamp, I did feel that it was important. I should be able to do that later this afternoon.
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Ah, so where is this "habit" and "conceptual belief"?
Not sure if you're asking for a softer alternative way to look? I suspect that trying the "where does the rod contact?" inquiry will be less gross if you do it another time?
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Ah, so where is this "habit" and "conceptual belief"? Thoughts, which arise, and go away again, and have no substance.
Not sure if you're asking for a softer alternative way to look? I suspect that trying the "where does the rod contact?" inquiry will be less gross if you do it another time? No, I meant softer link, like a silken cord? I’ll try that, though I ‘know’ the answer:-)
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Thoughts arise, attesting to a habit or conceptual belief, just as raising your hand used to attest to a "self" making that happen.
Look underneath the behavior: is there a "habit" or "belief" you can find?
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More stream-of-consciousness, as far as I could capture this afternoon’s experiences in words.
My partner was pottering about downstairs, so I retired to our bedroom.
“So, I look at a couple of things and imagining a silken cord separating subject/object. No chance of looking where the cord is connected to me because the whole analogy broke down and I started to laugh at the silliness of the idea.
What comes up loud and clear is, “There isn’t anything separating, It’s nonsense”, and inner laughter.
So, you ask me, ‘Where is the separation?’. Back to what I said earlier, ‘Thoughts...etc...’, then I recollect your answer.
I shut my eyes and try to delve underneath that thought. (Still some inner laughter) “How can that laundry box be separate from me? It clearly isn’t....inner laughter again.......whoa...wait....what about the separation in space? That is there and I am here? What rushed in was, “Yes, when I open my eyes, otherwise not. I shut my eyes, and there is the falling in space, the tumbling around together of the box and me. Disorientation again, even when I open my eyes. Mmm. A parallel with the body exercise, if I look at my foot I know it is there, otherwise not, but I am obviously not separated from my foot.......
Something else arose, very important, but I wasn’t quick enough to catch it. Am feeling its all connected, the body stuff, the stool ‘out there’ /not ‘out there, but very much to do with connection and not the reverse. I feel almost out of breath.
A big sense of shifting about again. Calm down. Shut eyes, let the disorientation just be, see what happens. Is disorientation the new normal? I glance at the laundry box, half expecting it to turn upside down - it didn’t.
Thinking, from the opposite point of view if someone said “That x is separate”. I would state that it is nothing of the kind.
Whoa....that means that the other things are not separate either? No, they aren’t. Can I prove that? No Do I need to? No.
I am astonished that all this is happening. Maybe I will turn upside down? Maybe I already have.
Sat quietly for a while, thoughts rambling away on nothing in particular.”
I still feel slightly shaky, but must do battle with the tea now.
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In the end, as the Zen saying go "mountains are still mountains, and rivers are still rivers". However, not the mountains and rivers you saw before. The laundry box will still be a laundry box, and definitely not one that suddenly turns upside down :-)
Yes, it's all connected. More to the point, it's all how you interpret experience, which by the time you were a very wee girl was a bunch of objects revolving around you the subject. It's disorienting to start to pick that apart (as you've seen!), though once it falls away, it will be the new normal, just as getting on without the sense of a separate "self" became the new normal. If you think about it, the mental infrastructure that will remain is already there, and will simply be allowed to function more freely once the overlay of duality is taken away.
While boundaries and separation are illusions, consider that it is one thing to sees such distinctions, and another to see that "I the subject" has a special place in all of those things. If the subject/object duality falls away, it's just you and everything else on the same footing as it were, all equally important. That there are no boundaries at all will no doubt start to be more and more clear, but here we are looking at why a perceiver and a perceived, "me" and "laundry box", have to be "me the subject" and "laundry box the object".
Please try more or less the same things you describe in your last email, and see if it is a bit less disorienting, and a bit more "oh, that's what's happening..."
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I can relate to the Zen saying, thanks for that.
Downstairs again.
I thought yesterday that the silken cord I mentioned was in any case more of a joining than a separating thing, so I gave the ‘rod’ a go. Could do it today without freaking out, (what was that about?). But, as before, I found the whole idea of such a thing separating me/whatever totally hilarious, so I let that alone.
All the following is with eyes shut, except when I did a quick scribble in my notebook, and to attend to the cat.
Armchair....the separate in space idea...but very close friends are still that, whether they are next to me or on another continent. Forget that one altogether.
Hold the chair in view, move it away, bring it near, label it, let the label go. ‘What separates...what in me...’ - ‘Because I’m special’ - Whoops! Thought I’d got over that stuff 2/3 years ago. Ooh, discomfort..... Now, I see the ‘special’ idea as being extremely funny.......Some free fall of chair/me....Cat interrupts for the third time.....Shift attention to cat. No, neither of us are ‘special’ Why do I think he is separate?......Remember the sand mandala....sand/me/cat fall away. Some slight disorientation. Cat settles down for a nap. Go back....look....Um. Fail to look...’The cat is in ‘his’ box’.....thoughts around that. I am not separate from carpet/cat/box, nor are they separate from one another.
Look again at chair. Consciously go deep as if finding the ‘gap’ - Yes, now there is a lot of space round, ‘What in me?’ Space around chair and me as we tumble around, but not so much tumbling today. Remember the body exercise......dissolve body(easy) now there’s no me.....dissolve chair (harder). Go deeper, hold a lot of ‘visibly invisibly’ molecules.........hold them....am shaken by a big sob, want to weep. The sense of ??? which I can’t quite catch, as yesterday. Go back to the dancing molecules, space around that. Now, it all feels perfectly comfortable........can’t hold it any longer. Come up from the depths, but still have the molecules at the back of my mind. Go deeper, not as much as before. An awareness of the other things in the room semi-dissolving.
Very tired now. Open eyes, still an awareness that the things could easily semi-dissolve. Not sure where ‘I’ am.
Feel very calm and peaceful.
(I wonder, can I ‘call up’ this state of everything being semi-dissolved? Will try that later on.)
Stood up, thought.....it’s a state of unreality.
That’s all for today. Looking forward to hearing from you, and doing more, tomorrow.
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Good to read this :-)
Instead of it being a state of unreality, maybe it's simply not the reality you've been used to? What if something like this becomes the "new normal"? :-)
My sense is that you've very much loosened things up, that you are not automatically jumping to the conclusion about what something is or isn't. Brilliant!
As hilarious as it is, let's please go back to how it is you are not just separate from all else, but unique, the center of it all. Where is that unique thing in you, that you have, which serves as the basis for the world of forms constellating around you? Where does the rod plant itself on your end?
It might feel as if the rod pivots around on your sternum, keeping everything at a certain distance, with you reliably as the focus. Think of drawing an arc with that rod, creating a circle around yourself: everything focuses on you, because the rod is always pointing at you.
Please allow there to be a nominal distinction between you and, say, a chair. It's not about discerning that you are "not a chair" or whether you can be "one with the chair", but rather why the chair has to be an object, with you as the subject. Why not just be aware of you and chair on an equal footing as it were? Where is that thing in you that makes being the locus of what is happening possible or necessary?
Put another way, if you don't stay "out there" with the chair or whatever, what are you referring to when you refer back, and conclude that it's you the subject looking at the chair as an object?
Finally, when you consider the word "subject", what pops to mind as far as what it is, and what your experience of it is?
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Here are my ‘answers’/thoughts.
Instead of it being a state of unreality, maybe it's simply not the reality you've been used to? What if something like this becomes the "new normal"? :-) I did think about that after I had sent the email. ‘Unreality’ should perhaps have read ‘reality’.
My sense is that you've very much loosened things up, that you are not automatically jumping to the conclusion about what something is or isn't. Brilliant! Thank you. I have a good guide.
As hilarious as it is, let's please go back to how it is you are not just separate from all else, but unique, the center of it all. Where is that unique thing in you, that you have, which serves as the basis for the world of forms constellating around you? Nowhere, it is not to be found. Where does the rod plant itself on your end?
Imaginatively, mid point between navel and waist.
It might feel as if the rod pivots around on your sternum, keeping everything at a certain distance, with you reliably as the focus. Think of drawing an arc with that rod, creating a circle around yourself: everything focuses on you, because the rod is always pointing at you. OK but what if it is pointing away from me. Maybe I am on the outside of the circle, in which case I would be the object.
Please allow there to be a nominal distinction between you and, say, a chair. It's not about discerning that you are "not a chair" or whether you can be "one with the chair", but rather why the chair has to be an object, with you as the subject. Why not just be aware of you and chair on an equal footing I like that very much. I am very happy with it, and sometimes it feels as though it is beginning to happen. Where is that thing in you that makes being the locus of what is happening possible or necessary? Nowhere, not after all that looking and not finding anything, with both the no-self enquiry, and more recently. I don’t go for there being anything that makes me, or anything in me the locus/focus. Not either possible or necessary.
Put another way, if you don't stay "out there" with the chair or whatever, what are you referring to when you refer back, and conclude that it's you the subject looking at the chair as an object? If I do so conclude, it is all I know how to do, I can’t be in anyone else’s head. It’s a convention, a way of speaking. It doesn’t mean that I I believe myself or anything on me to be important, certainly not the centre of the universe. Of course, in Fairy Stories it’s not at all unusual for a chair, or a tree to speak, and offer advice, say. Probably children find that much easier to accept than adults do. Young children don’t seem to be fixed’
Finally, when you consider the word "subject", what pops to mind as far as what it is, and what your experience of it is? Well, I have studied some languages, including my own, so I immediately think, ‘The subject is what comes in front of the verb”. ‘The subject of the sentence’ is my experience of this word, nothing to do with any ‘me’ at all :-)
I did try to do some looking with shut eyes, as before, but I didn’t sleep very well last night, so soon as shut my eyes, I was nodding off. All I could do today was to look at some things in the room or outside, bearing in mind the boundaryless body, so that the things ‘softened’ round the edges. I try to do this as I potter about the house, though mostly it isn’t possible, due to other circumstances. I do what I can, as I’m sure you realise.
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You've looked and looked for where the sense of being a subject arises, and what is behind it or is the result of it, and found nothing. And yet, the sense of there being a subject/object persists, even though things are getting soft around the edges. Is that a fair summary? Just want to make sure where you're at.
If you don't find anything, then why do you allow a subject to form? Does it seems like something you allow, even out of habit?
Let's try a somewhat different angle. Please notice if and how things "stick" as what they are perceived to be. For example, if you recognize a "table", how long is it consciously a "table"? There will be an initial recognition of it, which lasts a few milliseconds or so as you recognize it's a table, but what happens after that? Does that recognition that it is a "table" persist without any effort, or is there something happening by which the recognition of a "table" can persist? For example, do you have to bring to mind the word "table" in order for it to stay as such in awareness? Is there that sense of "referring back" at all? Is it even possible to continuously have it in awareness?
Try this with a few mundane objects around the house: I look forward to hearing how it goes :-)
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Yes the first paragraph is a fair summary of where I’m at, though I would add that the sense of subject/object is a Lot less than it was. It feels as if that separation is now very tenuous.
No it doesn’t seem as if I allow it, ......wait, I will think about that.....
Last night,’ half asleep, I began to wonder about the Metta Bhavana. I didn’t want to get back into that with a subject giving Metta and someone receiving it. That felt quite wrong. I was going to ask you about it, but this morning, I had the opportunity to do a short metta practice, and spontaneously, the ‘people’ were not ‘over there’ but sitting in the same place as I was. That has happened occasionally in the past, but today it was very easy and natural. When I got to, say, teachers’, or, ‘friends’, that was trickier, but I grouped us all together, me as well, maybe holding hands in a circle.
At, ‘all beings’, I imagined every person, or creature, all together in a friendly huddle, with me in there, with them, not separate. This seems to be the way forward, do you agree?
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Yes, the nominal distinction between you, friend, difficult person etc. will always be possible, and good luck getting across the street if you don't differentiate between “me” and other things & people!
Rather, it's more a matter of the experience of “me” is always available, whilst everyone/everything else comes and goes. The tendency is to thus identify with that which is always available, and to give is a different category than everyone/everything else. That's when you "take form" as the subject, as contrasted with objects that aren't always there or noticeable. If instead you stepped back and said "OK, right now in experience there is a teapot, you, a cup, some tea and a chair and table. Yes indeed: that's precisely what is happening right now". You and the teapot are on the same footing, in the same category. :-)
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Aha! Got it. Thank you. And I will continue to look both ways before stepping off the pavement!! (sidewalk?)
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I’ll use your email again, to make my responses.
“If you don't find anything, then why do you allow a subject to form? Does it seems like something you allow, even out of habit? No, I’m sure I don’t, though it’d always possible it is super-subtle:-)
Let's try a somewhat different angle. Please notice if and how things "stick" as what they are perceived to be. For example, if you recognize a "table", how long is it consciously a "table"? There will be an initial recognition of it, which lasts a few milliseconds or so as you recognize it's a table, but what happens after that?
Does that recognition that it is a "table" persist without any effort,
I was thinking on those lines yesterday, certainly it persists, without any effort, no labelling, nothing.
or is there something happening by which the recognition of a "table" can persist? For example, do you have to bring to mind the word "table" in order for it to stay as such in awareness?
Absolutely not.
Is there that sense of "referring back" at all?
Not normally, no
Is it even possible to continuously have it in awareness?
Yes, I have been gradually more and more aware that this is happening with the various things, as I walk around the house. Also, there is a sense of lightness, which wasn’t there before.
I am not at all sure that I am still subjectifying. It seems to be Ok with me/teapot/table, equally.
Though I realise that separation may still be happening at a very subtle level. Something has definitely changed. However, the one about thoughts simply arising and falling away is not happening.
Whether I’m ‘there’ or not, I can’t say how much I appreciate what you are doing for me. It is a precious gift.
Meanwhile, I await whatever else you may have in store for me!
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OK, so as you look at say a table or teapot, please notice what information you use to recognize that thing. It's likely visual info mostly: also see what memories might be in play, perhaps you smell something. At any rate, please just note all of the info you use to conclude it is whatever it is.
Now, do the same for "me the Subject" or just "me", depending on how she seems at the moment :-) Again, what information do you use to determine that “I” am looking at the table or teapot? Likely visual and memory as well, but also physical sensations no doubt - perhaps all 6 senses are contributing?. At any rate, is that information, in principle at least, any different than the sort of information you use to recognize a table or teapot?
If the sort of information seems different, why is that?
If the sort of information is more or less the same, why would "I" be any more significant than "table" or "teapot"?
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OK, so as you look at say a table or teapot, please notice what information you use to recognize that thing. It's likely visual info mostly: also see what memories might be in play, perhaps you smell something. At any rate, please just note all of the info you use to conclude it is whatever it is.
Yes, mostly visual, some memory and previous experience. Presumably if I had advanced dementia I may not remember what a table is, but, as it is I recognise a table when I see one. Most likely my mother told me what it was!
Also, I do tend to touch things as I go by....No, not people..... So I know the table, bookcase, etc, are made of wood. Similarly, I can recognise the radiator, visually, but also, when I touch it, I recognise the metal feel of it, and the ridges in it. It may be cool to the touch, or, as now, too hot to touch it at all.
The leather settee is interesting, as the outer feel of it is soft and a bit squidgy, but I can feel the wooden framework underneath. This is pretty much the same as for “me”, soft and - mmm..not quite squidgy, but I can’t think of the appropriate word. Underneath that, in most places, it is possible to feel the bones.
Now, do the same for "me the Subject" or just "me", depending on how she seems at the moment :-) Again, what information do you use to determine that “me” is looking at the table or teapot? Likely visual and memory as well, but also physical sensations no doubt - perhaps all 6 senses are contributing?.
Yes, I recognise the face in the mirror, and she is wearing her clothes, and I also know those by the feel of them. If she has just used handcream, for example, I recognise the smell, as being her handcream. Likewise, when I hear the voice. I won’t go onto the other senses, as that would be stretching the ideas too far., but....
At any rate, is that information, in principle at least, any different than the sort of information you use to recognize a table or teapot?
.......no, there is no difference, in essence, between the information used .......
If the sort of information seems different, why is that?
If the sort of information is more or less the same, why would "she" be any more significant than "table" or "teapot"?
Clearly, she cannot be, and is not, any more significant than the table, settee, etc.
A few weeks ago, I would have expected this conclusion to be scary, but it is not, just the tiniest bit of -
- Ah, I recollect from previous ‘experiments’ - a bit of unsteadiness, as when the other things appeared to be shifting about. Yes, I feel that, though quite subtly.
This whole process is astonishing, not least because I do not feel at all diminished, but rather as though I have gained by it. As indeed I have😊 (This machine doesn’t care for :-) and often changes it.)
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As with seeing through the illusion of a separate "self", what is happening underneath continues to happen, the same processes continue to function. Therefore, when a given layer of illusion is stripped off, there can be a bit of disorientation at first, but the infrastructure necessary to continue on with daily life continues to chug along just fine.
With every paradigm shift, what remains is "the new normal". :-)
Please spend some time just observing what is happening, and seeing the extent to which you need to refer back as it were to a "me" in order to simply live life. If tea pouring is being done, does there have to be a subject “me” perceiving that, or can the knowledge/observation that tea is being poured be enough? What if you never referred back to check with a “me”: would that change anything? How does the phrase "in the seen, there is just the seen" strike you?
And as the urges/inclinations arise to check/refer back, again look for who or what is being referred back to. There may or may not be a particular sensation in the sternum: it's more of an experiential looking. Do you assume that there is something/someone there, or is there actually something/someone there?
If you look but do not find anyone/anything to refer back to, please silently intone the phrase "Wow - there's nothing there" a time or three: what does that do, if anything? And is this any different than intoning "Wow, there's nothing here"?
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With every paradigm shift, what remains is "the new normal". :-) Sounds good to me.
Please spend some time just observing what is happening, and seeing the extent to which you need to refer back as it were to a "me" in order to simply live life. If tea pouring is being done, does there have to be a subject “me” perceiving that, or can the knowledge/observation that tea is being poured be enough?
It is quite enough, though I had to think about not being on automatic pilot, which isn’t the same thing. When that happens, I am thinking about some other thing. When I think about pouring tea, that is simply pouring tea.
What if you never referred back to check with a “me”: would that change anything?
I don’t think that I do refer back to check with a “me”. Mmmm.....
If I never did, then there would only be - oh! - ‘in the tea pouring there is only the tea pouring’.
Wow!
How does the phrase "in the seen, there is just the seen" strike you?
As a highly desirable, very beautiful, and very moving ideal. In addition, I used to think it was unattainable by me, in this life. Wow again.
And as the urges/inclinations arise to check/refer back, again look for who or what is being referred back to. There may or may not be a particular sensation in the sternum: it's more of an experiential looking.
No sensation. I did note, with some items, that a thought arose, but that was more like an associated fact. Eg. Looking at the bookcase, I noticed a particular book, and thought, ‘My Dad gave me that’. Fact. No further thoughts or feelings happened.
Do you assume that there is something/someone there,
I must have done so previously, but once I began to really look into it, courtesy of you, then there was/is no such assumption.
Or is there actually something/someone there? Ha ha ha. A little green man perhaps!!
If you look but do not find anyone/anything to refer back to, please silently intone the phrase "Wow - there's nothing there" a time or three: what does that do, if anything?
Immediate reaction was tears. A sense of huge relief
And is this any different than intoning "Wow, there's nothing here"?
‘What here? Where? There isn’t anything here or there.’, was my immediate response.
At that point I began to worry about ‘here’/there’ and whether I was misinterpreting, so I got into a tangle. Been better if I had left well alone, eh?
Overall, living my life as I have been doing this last few days, feels a lot easier, a lot simpler, a lot ‘lighter’, in spite of some small disorientation, especially if I think about that sand mandala
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Brilliant! This really seems to be becoming clear :-)
What I'd like to do is turn you loose on your life for 24 hours, and ask you to report back on what you observe, see, reflect on, etc., without any particular questions or comments from me.
I look forward to reading what you write!
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Well that was interesting. Taking away all the times I was interacting with other people, concentrating on doing everyday jobs, reading a book, or watching snooker (!), I was enjoying an awareness of my surroundings, and feeling inwardly spacious wherever I was. If I thought about it at all, sort of ‘checking’ , there was no subject/ object happening. As you said, there was table, chair, “me”, book, cup of tea, all equal.
Last week I had wondered if this would only happen in the house, but, in the morning I drove out, a few streets away, and was delighted that the same things were evident. An awareness of other traffic, parked cars, trees, houses, “me”, the bread shop, with “me” feeling very content with things being the way they were. And, yes, I was looking where I was going😊
If this is the new ‘normal’, then I like it very much.
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I'm glad you like it very much! As with the "self", has it ever been any other way? Once you realize there's nothing to check back to, the checking back stops, and you just stay "out there".
So, in your own words:
- what is/was the subject?
- how do things "take form", and what does that offer or add to experience?
- can you get along without form?
- how is what is seen (table, thought, etc.) seen now, compared to say a month ago?
- what are boundaries?
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I was going to put,’ Dear Guide and Mentor’, which is true, but looks rather formal😊 I cannot believe this has happened, in such a relatively short space of time. Then again, it has been a very long time, in terms of experience, and change.
Here goes.....
I'm glad you like it very much! As with the "self", has it ever been any other way?
Probably not. I am just amazed that these astonishing shifts lead to a place which feels so ordinary, so normal. No fireworks, drums, trumpets, cheering crowds (!). It is just normal - well, now it is.
Once you realize there's nothing to check back to, the checking back stops, and you just stay "out there".
So, in your own words:
- what is/was the subject?
A perceived ‘me’, if not the centre of the universe, the centre of the room, house, street, etc. But now, that perception has completely gone, which is remarkable, since I didn’t know it was there.
- how do things "take form", and what does that offer or add to experience?
If I understand the question correctly, this was ‘me’ labelling, and/or referring back. Which made the experience fixed and rigid. I thought this morning, it was almost like an Me -vs-‘Them’, though again, I hadn’t been aware of that, until you showed me.
- can you get along without form? In the above sense, then, yes thanks, I can manage quite nicely.
- how is what is seen (table, thought, etc.) seen now, compared to say a month ago?
Now, the experience of living my life, being around ‘stuff’, is fluid and open, often spacious. ‘We’re all in this together’ rather than ....wait....it just came to me....before, a sense of isolation. Occasionally there is still a small sense of ‘shifting about’, as I settle into the new reality. I guess that happened to you too?
- what are boundaries?
Ha ha My initial reaction was , “Hey, what boundaries?”
I need to say that there is a tiny piece of me that is afraid this new state of being will not last, and so, as I potter about, I keep ‘testing’ so to speak, by looking, checking how it all appears, and how I feel. This small shift is actually Huge, and could take a while before I am settled into it. Then .....who knows, what else!!
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This all sounds very good :-) That it is very ordinary can simply be seen as the fact that this level of functioning was already in place but obscured, just as desire and ill will were in place but obscured by the "self".
I was going to suggest just that: take some time to let it settle in, and please keep me apprised of how it goes. By all means keep prodding and testing yourself: "is this sticking?"
The fetter is "craving for form", in that we crave the delineation of form, thus boundaries. The "form" you take is as subject, and everything is an object.
Perhaps watch how things might start out being recognized as whatever they are, and then watch what happens to that discerned thing. An analogy I might offer is that, with a laser printer, you can put the ink on the page, but without the toner, the ink just rubs off. The sand mandala/painting analogy might really fit as well.
At any rate, see how it goes!
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Excellent. I agree, give it some time to settle in is a good plan.
Thanks for everything you have done, your time, your patience, and your guidance, are all hugely appreciated.
I prefer the analogy of the sand mandala, and will bring it to mind as necessary, together with various other suggestions you have made along the way. Certainly I will let you know how I get on.
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This is an interim ‘check-in’. The other day, briefly, I was feeling that I was better before I took on the 6th fetter. Mmm. Concluded that was because I am used to the old way of being. Interesting.
Thursday I went into town. Was fine travelling on the bus, but once I was in the city, ....oh....big disorientation......possibly because I was in a bigger space, with more happening, and more people. Anyhow, it wore off after about an hour.
The really amazing thing which has happened, and I don’t grasp the connection with what I have been doing, needs a bit of background. I believe that, as a young child, I was frightened, one evening, when someone banged on the window of the room where I was, without the curtains being closed. Whatever it was, ever since then, I have been very uncomfortable being in a room at dusk or dark, with the curtains open. The other evening I was sitting with my partner, talking, reading, watching a bit of TV, looking out at the garden and the trees, all as usual. Time passed, and at one point I thought, “It’s nearly dark”.
Then it hit me. The curtains were wide open, and I hadn’t noticed. Where was the fear. What had happened??
I thought I would tell you this, and see what you make of it. A shift like this, at my age......
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Ah, "form" is what we do to things in the mind, giving them boundaries and separation, and also meaning and substance. Even abstract thoughts "take form". And of course, "we" take form, our central place in that world of form.
If you no longer see things as diametrical opposites as in "me and X", that comparative mindset and interpretation no longer prevails. It's not an open window which affects “me”, it's an open window and “me”, both momentarily in awareness and given equal status. There is also less or no inclination to make that distinction last, as with the sand mandala. So, dwelling on "how this affects me" dwindles. Being in the city the first time, with nothing "sticking" took an hour to get used to! :-)
Also, without desire/ill will as a lens, fear subsides. Accepting the way things are right now, we know we will accept it all five minutes from now too! Thus, no fear as to what might happen next. The curtains are open, it's nearly dark: so what? :-)
Hope this makes some sense?
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Yes it does, thank you so much. I assumed it was all connected, but I couldn’t quite grasp how and why.
What an adventure!
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Here I am, home after a pleasant and relaxing time with my friends.
There was no disorientation, simply an awareness of objects, and my surroundings, with no boundaries, no separation. I was able to just ‘be’ with whatever was around, and there was/is a sense of spaciousness, both inner and outer. Interestingly, I also became much more aware of my body, and its movements not to mention thoughts and feelings.
We meditated a few times, and once I stopped trying to ‘fix’ the Metta Bhavana into the same way as before, there was a huge openness, as if a huge spread of Metta was available to me, to everyone. I can’t find the correct words for what it was like, but, certainly, very different, very easy, and very deep.
When I’m responding to other people that feels even easier than before, almost as if I am coming from a different place. Ah! Well, I am coming from a different place.:-)
So, I am settling into this amazing new reality, and it is all due to you, dear guide and mentor.
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Good to read this :-) It sounds like it is becoming the "new normal", which is the way all paradigm shifts come to be seen. I very much resonate with your description of the metta practice and what responding to others is like.