The Eight Fetter - Sample Dialogue
The following was an actual back-and forth dialogue I had with someone by which they were able to see why it seemed as though there was an innate or fundamental “I”, and also see that it was an illusion. While dialogues are in the form of a conversation, often with remarks about what is happening in daily life for each of us, what follows has been edited to only include the portions directly relevant to the inquiry. Certain words or descriptions used by the person I was in dialogue with have been changed in order to not reveal their identity. What they wrote is in bold font and indented for readability.
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Hello:
OK, let’s explore the 8th fetter and the notion that “I Am”. This, and looking at the 6th and 7th fetters on “subjectivity” and “perception”, comprise a rather inward-oriented set of steps, compared with looking at “desire and ill will” as the 4th and 5th fetters. It might be said that “desire and ill will” was about trying to control people and things "out there", but now we are looking at wanting to control your experience "in here", regardless of what everyone else might do or not do. There is certainly an external aspect to the later/higher fetters, but the shifts (as always) occur “in here”.
Rather than it being about the "nature of reality", it is about letting go of wanting or needing to know what that nature is, or that there is even a "nature" that could be known. This includes no longer wondering if all that you see is merely a product of mental interpretation. Instead, this is about whether there's a "me" of any sort, tangible or otherwise.
Some find the 8th shift to be unsettling, though that varies. As I think/hope I've mentioned before, once all sense of "me" goes, the control you once thought you had over life goes away, as does the ability to manage past trauma. From what you write, it sounds like you are in a good place to do this work, though I do want to emphasise that things can get "interesting" from here on out. And if they do, trust that I will be with you as things unfold.
To start, as you silently drop in "I... I..." and/or "me... me...", what happens?
So, please let me know what the experience of "I" and/or "me" is like for you now.
I look forward to this conversation!
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Thanks for your kind reply, and the 'health warning'!
Today, I have sat intoning “I... I... I…”, or “me... me... me…” on several occasions.
“I” seems to elicit no response or sensation, it is just a word, or the letter I. “Me”, however, seems to come to rest and get stuck in a place behind the sternum, just below the throat area, but above the heart chakra. This is also the place where I notice tension when I start to feel pleased with myself for some reason.
So thanks for getting me started again.
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The fact that "I" is just a word, but "me" has some traction, is common: many if not most I've worked with identify or resonate with one term more than the other. So, we will use “me” :-)
You mentioned earlier that there are times when there is no sense of "me" present - for example, when out for a walk, it can be “just walking” that is happening. Please try to notice (or recall) the experience of "no me", compared to what it feels like when there is a sense of "me" present - what is the difference?
Put another way, what quality (control, separation, ownership, perspective, etc.) HAS to be in place for the sense of "me" to arise?
One possible way to turn the sense of "me" on and off might be to close your eyes and empty the mind (which shouldn't be too difficult now), and then upon opening them, focus on something nearby in front of you, say a chair.
Whether by using this approach, or otherwise, please let me know what the difference(s) are when "me" is either present or not.
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You asked: Please try to notice (or recall) the experience of "no me", compared to what it feels like when there is a sense of "me" present - what is the difference?
The experience of 'no me', is a more prolonged and frequent experience similar to what happened on the initial seeing through of no separate self. There is no agency, or controller - body moves, thoughts happen. This is associated with an inner freedom of energy, no tension or blocks. Life happens. Appropriate action is taken. I find it fascinating that I do things physically better with just the right amount of effort and care. This feels grounded and accompanied by joy and happiness.
However, after a while, a feeling of self satisfaction creeps in. A being rather pleased with itself, although no particular comparing myself to others. At that point, the physical sensations change, and there is a closing/tightening behind the sternum, between the throat and the heart area. 'Me' seems to reside there. This is the main manifestation of 'me' so far as I can tell.
Looking for how 'me' arises, I used the exercise you suggested. I found that bringing something like a chair or the usual view from my window, in and out of focus. didn't cause any degree of separation, or inner tension - it can be seen as shape, colour etc. or a chair, or a tree or a roof or not - there is no going out to it.
I did however notice when I was in the park today, I heard a bird call that I didn't recognise. As I started to think 'What is this?', and looked up to see if I could see anything, there was a definite separation from experience. So there was a 'me' wanting to identify a 'something' out there. It wasn't important. When I recognised that, and let it go, there was relaxation again.
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OK, thank you for taking the time to see when and how you experience a "me".
To summarise what you said, the sense of "me" can arise due to the sense of self-satisfaction (ironically, regarding the experience of extended periods of no "me-ness"), as well as hearing a bird call you don't recognise. That a sense of "me" arises when you either feel exalted or unsure (or threatened?) makes sense, by which a separation manifests. And the main manifestation of "me" is physical sensation change involving a closing/tightening behind the top of the sternum, where a "me" seems to reside. I presume that, at that point, silently dropping in the pronoun "me..." has a certain resonance as well?
Please continue to watch when, why and how the sense of "me" arises, in those and other situations, so you become sensitive to (and something of a connoisseur of!) what the sense of "me" is like.
When the physical sensations start to change, and prior to the closing/tightening fully developing and the full sense of "me" arising, what seems to create and then notice the incipient separation between "me" and "not me"? For example, it might feel like:
Whatever label or term seems most "accurate", it's not like whatever it is will show up on an x-ray. However, as the sense of "me" arises, what label or term makes the most sense, and has the most resonance? Put another way, if it weren't for what seems to be this sort of thing, the sense of "me" wouldn't be able to develop or be noticed.
Thus, prior to there being a "who", there is a "what".
So, as you go through your day, and the sense of "me" comes and goes, please allow it to come, and get a sense of the label or term that seems to best describe what becomes active or instrumental in creating a sense of “me”. And let me know what that label or term is!
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Dear Kevin, Thanks for this suggestion. I'm finding it difficult to tease this out, but here is so far.
I haven't had the experience of self satisfaction, since I wrote last. But it seems to be due to separation, with pride involved.
Also today I was sitting in the garden, counting butterflies and sorting them. I found that I was seeing and counting, with it all just happening. So no problem with just labelling.
Then I saw a butterfly off to my left, but I couldn't really get a view of it. At that point, there was a definite sense of separation, related to wanting to know, presumably with some craving. It quickly passed and settled. “Me” was suddenly there!
Sitting here, as I write this saying “me… me… me…” lands nowhere. But “me” is lurking still in the wings so to speak!
I'm not sure if I have really answered your question, but this is it so far!
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Thank you for the details of how this is going so far!
Please know that this is very, very subtle - the most subtle inquiry you've done so far. The sense of "me" can arise, and then vanish, especially if you pay any attention to it. It might seem as though it slips through your fingers as soon as you start to focus on it.
Also, a big part of this step of inquiry is getting used to the subtlety of the looking needed. It is as though you have to become attuned to it, which might be a bit frustrating at times. However, while everyone struggles at first with it, everyone also manages to settle down to this more subtle sort of looking :-)
If and when the sense of "me" does arise, please don't presume anything or conceptualise, such as it arising due to craving.
Also, try to avoid concepts such as “oh, it’s just awareness being aware of itself”. In other words, allow a bird, a book or a table to be just that, without analyzing the nature of that bird, book or table.
Just allow “me” to arise, and also notice how it feels in the body - notice the felt sense of awareness, consciousness, or separation, without any concepts providing commentary about what you are looking at is or isn’t.
Pressing on, please explore how the sense of "me" can be encouraged or allowed to arise - it sounds like everyday experiences may not trigger it much. For example, it may be something provocative or even challenging that you can look at (a picture of a politician you don’t care for, perhaps?). Or, it might be a painful memory from the past, by which a natural sort of protectiveness of your core arises. In other words, what sorts of experiences tend to trigger a “me”sort of awareness or separation?
It won’t of course be a physical separation, but more of a sense that a portion of experience is cordoned off, and able to be labeled as consciousness, awareness, presence, knowingness, beingness or similar, regardless of whether or not the label “me” is also applied.
However the sense of separation arises, please don't just allow it to arise and then pass away: try to get sensitive to when it starts to arise. When it does start to arise, drop the attention being paid to what is "not me"; for example, drop looking at the butterfly, and look inward to get a sense of what seems to be creating and noticing that separation.
To avoid the sense of "me" slipping through your fingers so quickly: try to more passively notice what the separator thing might be, rather than actively scouring experience for whatever it is. In just noticing that the separation is happening, silently ask yourself: "what sort of thing is making this separation happen?" So, as before, the intent at this point is to get a sense of what "it" seems to be.
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Thanks for the helpful clarification of this next process. I re-listened to your interviews on the 8th fetter, which were very helpful. I particularly resonated with your description of an 'interiority' - that seems to correlate with my experience thus far, particularly when doing the looking in fetters 6 and 7. That sense of an inner tension or boundary, holding an inner 'me', has largely dropped, and it now feels as though the last wisps of this inner 'me' need releasing.
There were two 'me' experiences in the last 2 days. I woke up yesterday morning and remembered fragments of a dream,which I wrote down.
I'd been away, and returned home. My partner (who didn't resemble anyone I know - let alone my real partner who died some time ago) was very quiet. There were other people around. when we were alone I talked to him. He had been having neurological symptoms, unsteadiness and shakiness, and was very worried. I said 'we will face this together' and went to cuddle him ... and then woke up.
On waking up, I felt shocked and confused. I recalled and wrote down the dream, and then lay back. There was a tension behind the upper sternum, that was 'me'. I tried to stay with it but it disappeared. Later I was startled by a loud noise - again the sensation behind the sternum arose - 'me' was being threatened. When I realised the noise was of no import, the sensation left, and 'me' left too.
Would it be helpful to look more closely at this? It feels as this is the wispy core that needs to be let go of. Otherwise there is much happiness and contentment. I'm not sure if I've grasped the subtle method this inquiry involves.
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Yes, a "wispy core" sounds quite appropo. It's so, so subtle, much more so than previous steps, so no worries if it seems like there isn't much to work with or that you aren't getting something. Also, as the "wispy core" dissipates, there naturally won't be much to work with :-)
In terms of engaging with situations where there seems to be something to look for, feel free to focus more on the bodily sensations, rather than resonance with the term "me" or "I", especially if the sense of "me" is fleeting. In particular, whenever there is an interior or "in here" aspect of any sort, even of a subtle nature, what observes, notices or recognises that?
Whether or not the sensations in the sternum area arise, or that experience is labelled as "me", just note how there is an inner, protected, controlled, owned and/or innate sense or flavor to experience.
When that inner, protected, controlled, owned or innate sense arises, it may seem as though something knows and see the fact that "oh, this is me and mine, and all else is not". What discerns, differentiates, filters or otherwise "processes" experience, by which there is knowing what is me/mine, and what isn't, and by which that sense of there being an inner, protected, controlled, owned or controllable aspect to experience is known?
It can work well if you can get sensitive to the arising of "me", rather than noticing "me" once it's present. It might feel as though you're just starting to step back from experience, or starting to gain a perspective.
So, please try to see if there are situations in daily life where that sense of inner, protected, controlled, owned or innate starts to arise. And as it starts to arise, what discerns, differentiates, filters or otherwise "processes" experience, by which there is knowing what is me/mine, and what isn't?
In sum, you're looking for a "what", not a "who" (or a "me").
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I think I need to let go more into the process, keeping an edge, but allowing it to unfold, as with your kind guidance, I am confident it will.
In many ways I'm enjoying this stage - being grounded and happy, as well as being more fully present.
But there is, as you describe it, the itch of 'me' that is coming to the fore.
I find it fascinating in this process, as each fetter drops the subject of the next one comes quite sharply into focus, as the next one to tackle. I think it would in some way, even if I didn't have prior knowledge of the list of fetters. A natural process.
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Glad that was helpful, and that you are enjoying what seems like the obvious next step :-)
And yes, try to let go, and relinquish of any analytical sort of approach or trying to understand any cause & effect, and just become sensitive to what it is that you seem to have that engages or becomes operative when a certain aspect of experience has a flavor of being inner, protected, controlled, owned and/or innate.
Try to avoid discerning the “nature” of what is seen or heard, such as the call of a bird, a loud noise, etc. For example, since there is no more “perception of things” happening, it might be tempting to conclude that whatever it is you are looking for (consciousness, awareness, etc.) must be looking at itself, or similar.
That “me” flavor might not last very long, particularly if you try to look too intently - a softer touch of more noticing (rather than scouring) experience is likely helpful in that regard. Otherwise, it might feel as though it slips through your fingers.
So, please take some notes when any of those sorts of "flavors" arise (whether or not a strong sense of "me" accompanies them), and what it seems that creates or notices that flavor.
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I liked the description of 'me' being like a smell or scent. One can be walking along, and smell something, look around, not see where or what it is coming from, walk along a bit further, and it is gone. Then, perhaps walking that way again and again, the cause of the scent is apparent. And then it happens again.
I have been working on defining 'me', or, as it seems to provoke more, to define this is NOT me. One small example, was reading your suggestion that I make notes - immediately there was a thought "I don't make notes!' in that I don't keep a journal. Which is broadly speaking true, as I rarely read them again. I noticed the sense of separation, and the slight tightening behind the upper sternum. It melted away. I thought I might get into dialogue with the sensation - 'hello' are you me?'
I have started making notes though!
By making these definitions aren't I at some level making a comparison with 'other', even subconsciously? It seems as long as there is the sense of a 'me-thing', there has also at some level to be a sense of an 'other-thing'. Does that mean that although shifts occur, the other fetters are still there at some level, until 8 falls?
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Yes, 'me' is a flavor or scent - definitely not something you can put your finger on, and yet it is all-pervasive at times.
That's great that you noticed the sense of separation arising upon my unwittingly suggesting that you take notes :-) The tightening behind the sternum may or may not always show up, but the separation, and the sense that there is an "in here" (and thus an "out there") should be fairly consistent.
For some, vestiges (or perhaps just memories) of earlier fetters still persist when working on/with fetter #8. That was not my experience - I was among those for whom each step was a clean break.
The "me" is more or less non-describable and indefinable - even calling it a "me thing" is perhaps going too far! Instead of trying to define "me", please notice what happens if and when the sense of flavor/scent of "me" arises. If and when that sense of "me" arises, what creates and/or notices it? What discerns it, distinguishes it, filters it out from "not me", etc.?
So, you're looking for a "what" that is identified with or as “me”, rather than directly looking at or for a "who" (or "me").
Decisively not-finding this "what" will take care of the "me" as well, just as not-finding "perception" in the previous step took care of everything else :-)
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I've started making notes - my better hand writing at least means they are legible! You ask me for a what, but I think this is more of a “why” there is a holding to 'me'. It may relate to the whole exploration.
There is no doubt that at present I'm feeling good about 'me' in its various aspects. This I am enjoying. I spent many years in my teens and twenties hating who I was. I couldn't understand why other people despite their faults could apparently not be too concerned about themselves. During that time, I used to have dreams/nightmares in which I was unpleasant and violent to people, mostly with speech, occasionally physically. I used to wake up sweating and terrified about what I had done in the dream. My power and capacity to behave badly, really troubled me. I was ashamed, but also defensive. Yet I could see other people behaving badly in different ways, perhaps acknowledging it, and then just getting on with life. What was their secret I used to think, how come they seem OK about themselves? Why won't they let me into the secret?
An experience in my 30s opened a doorway for me - I had more understanding - it felt as though I had joined the human race. But I still felt in a sort of limbo, doing my best, but knowing I was failing. So, the joy of stumbling into Buddhism a few years later gave me the capacity for change. And over the years there has been change, beneficial to me, and for the most part to those around me. Doing the fetters process has created more positive changes, as the various layers of being have cracked off, like constricting bands being cut.
Now, at present, there is a large part of my being happy with what is here. But no 'me' altogether? No 'me' to be content about? Does this feel a step too far? Perhaps there is a holding on to this view that is too pleasant. And yet, I know and see that it needs to go - to be released.
There is a sense of holding onto a central pole of 'me', for safety possibly. You asked:
If and when that sense of "me" arises, what creates and/or notices it?
Yes indeed, I understand your hall of mirrors analogy. “Me” can't keep looking back at “me”, that is not possible, and yet that is how it seems. Simply residual tension in the energy body. Relax and let go.
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Thank you for that, and your realisation of how important it is that there be a sense of a central pole of 'me', likely for safety. That's one way of describing what this step is about - seeing what the sense of "me" does for you, thus why it is so persistent. Please do keep an eye out for the flavor of not just "me", but also the flavor of fear and/or concern for safety that the thought of releasing "me" might trigger.
In terms of looking, instead of directly inducing the "hall of mirrors" effect, in which there can be a "standoff" of sorts, where "me" looks for "me":
Thus, just allow the looking for what perceives whatever is "not me", perhaps as if whatever it is detects or recognises the "not me-ness" of whatever you are currently separate from.
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Dear Kevin, thanks for your advice. There is no me, I or mine!!
I woke up to your email, and was reflecting with a cup of tea. I had the image of my hanging on to 'me', as like holding the pole or straps on a moving bus or the underground, to stop being thrown about. But then I thought 'Hey, but there is no pole', so there is nothing to hang to.
Later I was sitting, reflecting and remembered years ago ringing the Irish Embassy in London, to enquire if I could get an Irish passport. ( My Dad was born in Ireland, although we are not Irish). The Embassy guy told me that “Yes I was an Irish Citizen", and the paperwork needed to apply for my passport. I was surprised how easy it seemed, and started asking more questions. In a broad Irish accent he said: "You're an Irish citizen, whether you like it or not, or know it or not"! (I have both Irish and UK passports, possibly useful when we leave the EU).
Remembering this, I thought today - and I was an Irish citizen from birth. It just is. Then there was a moment of discontinuity, and I knew there was no me. I sat with tears in my eyes, then had a short shaking attack, followed by feeling very grounded. I noticed then and since that there is no inner tension - the chakras and central channel are completely free and open. So there is no me, I, mine, 'whether I like it or not or know it or not!' And of course, I can still continue to do what I could do before, as I haven't lost anything - it was never there to lose. I'm just feeling very quiet but happy.
I sit here feeling so grateful to you, for your kindness and guidance.
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That's a fascinating story, and how it fits in so wonderfully with what we have been looking at :-)
What happens now when you silently drop in "me... me..." - what is the experience of that?
What sort of response is there?
Also, what is the sense of there being an "in here" versus and "out there"?
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Hello Kevin - thanks for getting back so quickly. Dropping in “me...me…” lands nowhere. It seems to have no meaning any longer.
There doesn't seem to be an inner and outer - just 'isness'.
I'm aware as I write this, that thinking occurs, that someone sitting next to me wouldn't know, unless I expressed it, so on that level there is inner, but there are no more strings or bands to cut-nothing held 'inside' - nothing there.
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Super :-) You're not going crazy, by the way!
Please sit down to meditate, or otherwise look introspectively - your choice as to what sort of meditation it might be. What is the experience of that introspection?
Also, what is "awareness"? What does the term mean, or refer to?
And having experienced a "me" your whole life: was it because you identified with an aspect of experience, or identified as an aspect of experience? Is/was there a difference between identifying with and identifying as something?
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Don't worry - with each shift I have felt more sane!
I have been sitting in meditation quite a lot these last few weeks, mainly open awareness, usually 40 to 60 minutes. Today, I sat and the body grounded quite quickly. I was aware of the openness through the central channel, the breath flowing right through the body. The main focus seemed to rest on the heart and throat area. There was a steady feeling of joy and contentment. Commentary voice seems to have gone, thinking was sparse. I didn't experience going off into higher states.
What is awareness? The noticing of what is actually happening at anyone time - what one notices, which of necessity is only a small part of what is being experienced by the senses. It's not a thing.
As to “with experience” as against 'as experience' - I'm not sure which is which, but whilst there was a sense of “me”, there was a gap between experience and the me that experiences - I suppose setting up a commentary voice. That gap seems to have closed, so that now there is simply experience.
The unpleasant feeling of being rather pleased with myself has gone, also, certainly this morning, a habitual tendency to feel a bit nihilistic on waking up.
Today, there was just “waking up”. I've had an unexpectedly busy day, but have been able to easily transfer from one activity to another without any difficulty.
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Ah, super - increasing sanity is always nice :-)
And that is a beautiful description of what it is like to just sit in a grounded way.
OK, let's cross "awareness" of the list of things that exist! It's of course a handy word at times, though even something that is presumed to be fundamental like "awareness" doesn't actually exist.
And yes, there's just experience - identifying with it (as if you own or control it) or identifying as it (in the sense that it is you, and you are it) can eventually lose their meaning... which is the whole point here :-)
Glad that daily life continues to just go along, perhaps as easily as ever?
At this point, I'm going to stop asking specific questions (though I may have more!), and just ask you to notice (and let me know) if/when the following occurs:
On the last bullet, as I've mentioned before, when the sense of "me" fades, unresolved trauma can come up. The therapy you’ve done in years past may have done a great deal to address that (which would be great!), but do be sensitive to if and when it seems like you're working without a net, or otherwise it seems that either past or current difficulties cannot be managed or dealt with.
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Hello:
OK, let’s explore the 8th fetter and the notion that “I Am”. This, and looking at the 6th and 7th fetters on “subjectivity” and “perception”, comprise a rather inward-oriented set of steps, compared with looking at “desire and ill will” as the 4th and 5th fetters. It might be said that “desire and ill will” was about trying to control people and things "out there", but now we are looking at wanting to control your experience "in here", regardless of what everyone else might do or not do. There is certainly an external aspect to the later/higher fetters, but the shifts (as always) occur “in here”.
Rather than it being about the "nature of reality", it is about letting go of wanting or needing to know what that nature is, or that there is even a "nature" that could be known. This includes no longer wondering if all that you see is merely a product of mental interpretation. Instead, this is about whether there's a "me" of any sort, tangible or otherwise.
Some find the 8th shift to be unsettling, though that varies. As I think/hope I've mentioned before, once all sense of "me" goes, the control you once thought you had over life goes away, as does the ability to manage past trauma. From what you write, it sounds like you are in a good place to do this work, though I do want to emphasise that things can get "interesting" from here on out. And if they do, trust that I will be with you as things unfold.
To start, as you silently drop in "I... I..." and/or "me... me...", what happens?
- For example, is there an affirmation, or perhaps what seems to be an "I" or "me" that answers to its name as it were?
- Or, is there something (such as consciousness, awareness, knowing, presence, etc.) which proves you exist, or to which your attention naturally goes once your identity as “me” or “I” is mentioned?
- Also, is it comforting, unsettling, boring, etc. to intone these first-persons pronouns?
So, please let me know what the experience of "I" and/or "me" is like for you now.
I look forward to this conversation!
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Thanks for your kind reply, and the 'health warning'!
Today, I have sat intoning “I... I... I…”, or “me... me... me…” on several occasions.
“I” seems to elicit no response or sensation, it is just a word, or the letter I. “Me”, however, seems to come to rest and get stuck in a place behind the sternum, just below the throat area, but above the heart chakra. This is also the place where I notice tension when I start to feel pleased with myself for some reason.
So thanks for getting me started again.
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The fact that "I" is just a word, but "me" has some traction, is common: many if not most I've worked with identify or resonate with one term more than the other. So, we will use “me” :-)
You mentioned earlier that there are times when there is no sense of "me" present - for example, when out for a walk, it can be “just walking” that is happening. Please try to notice (or recall) the experience of "no me", compared to what it feels like when there is a sense of "me" present - what is the difference?
- For example, with a sense of "me", there might seem to be a particular perspective on life, as if you subtly step back from experience into "your" half of it.
- Or, it might seem as though there were a tangible awareness or consciousness that was doing its thing.
- Or, it might seem like there is a more obvious sense of "in here" (and perhaps a more obvious sense that everything and everyone else is "out there").
- Or, it might seem like experience (or at least your portion of it) is owned by, controllable by you and/or something innate to you.
- Or, it might seem as though the “me” portion of experience is now more clearly separated from the various "not me" aspects.
- Or... how would you describe it?
Put another way, what quality (control, separation, ownership, perspective, etc.) HAS to be in place for the sense of "me" to arise?
One possible way to turn the sense of "me" on and off might be to close your eyes and empty the mind (which shouldn't be too difficult now), and then upon opening them, focus on something nearby in front of you, say a chair.
- At first, it will just be an image with gradations of color, but a few moments later it will become a "chair", and at that time you will likely feel a physical or even visceral sense of separation arise, where it's obvious once again that there is a "me" (and by extension, a "not me", in this case, a chair) aspect to experience.
- Then, if you stare at the chair for a bit and soften your focus, it tends to melt back into something rather nondescript again, and the sense of "me" will likely fade as well.
- Then, close your eyes, and then open them to look at something else in the room, etc.
Whether by using this approach, or otherwise, please let me know what the difference(s) are when "me" is either present or not.
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You asked: Please try to notice (or recall) the experience of "no me", compared to what it feels like when there is a sense of "me" present - what is the difference?
The experience of 'no me', is a more prolonged and frequent experience similar to what happened on the initial seeing through of no separate self. There is no agency, or controller - body moves, thoughts happen. This is associated with an inner freedom of energy, no tension or blocks. Life happens. Appropriate action is taken. I find it fascinating that I do things physically better with just the right amount of effort and care. This feels grounded and accompanied by joy and happiness.
However, after a while, a feeling of self satisfaction creeps in. A being rather pleased with itself, although no particular comparing myself to others. At that point, the physical sensations change, and there is a closing/tightening behind the sternum, between the throat and the heart area. 'Me' seems to reside there. This is the main manifestation of 'me' so far as I can tell.
Looking for how 'me' arises, I used the exercise you suggested. I found that bringing something like a chair or the usual view from my window, in and out of focus. didn't cause any degree of separation, or inner tension - it can be seen as shape, colour etc. or a chair, or a tree or a roof or not - there is no going out to it.
I did however notice when I was in the park today, I heard a bird call that I didn't recognise. As I started to think 'What is this?', and looked up to see if I could see anything, there was a definite separation from experience. So there was a 'me' wanting to identify a 'something' out there. It wasn't important. When I recognised that, and let it go, there was relaxation again.
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OK, thank you for taking the time to see when and how you experience a "me".
To summarise what you said, the sense of "me" can arise due to the sense of self-satisfaction (ironically, regarding the experience of extended periods of no "me-ness"), as well as hearing a bird call you don't recognise. That a sense of "me" arises when you either feel exalted or unsure (or threatened?) makes sense, by which a separation manifests. And the main manifestation of "me" is physical sensation change involving a closing/tightening behind the top of the sternum, where a "me" seems to reside. I presume that, at that point, silently dropping in the pronoun "me..." has a certain resonance as well?
Please continue to watch when, why and how the sense of "me" arises, in those and other situations, so you become sensitive to (and something of a connoisseur of!) what the sense of "me" is like.
When the physical sensations start to change, and prior to the closing/tightening fully developing and the full sense of "me" arising, what seems to create and then notice the incipient separation between "me" and "not me"? For example, it might feel like:
- a separator that carves out "my" portion of experience
- a distinguisher, differentiator or discriminator that notices and highlights that a bird call or anything else is what it is, and also that it is "not me"
- a filter or screen that selectively sifts through experiences and isolates "me" from "not me"
- a lens that provides a certain perspective
- an innate sort of awareness that naturally or inherently has a “me” sense to it.
Whatever label or term seems most "accurate", it's not like whatever it is will show up on an x-ray. However, as the sense of "me" arises, what label or term makes the most sense, and has the most resonance? Put another way, if it weren't for what seems to be this sort of thing, the sense of "me" wouldn't be able to develop or be noticed.
Thus, prior to there being a "who", there is a "what".
So, as you go through your day, and the sense of "me" comes and goes, please allow it to come, and get a sense of the label or term that seems to best describe what becomes active or instrumental in creating a sense of “me”. And let me know what that label or term is!
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Dear Kevin, Thanks for this suggestion. I'm finding it difficult to tease this out, but here is so far.
I haven't had the experience of self satisfaction, since I wrote last. But it seems to be due to separation, with pride involved.
Also today I was sitting in the garden, counting butterflies and sorting them. I found that I was seeing and counting, with it all just happening. So no problem with just labelling.
Then I saw a butterfly off to my left, but I couldn't really get a view of it. At that point, there was a definite sense of separation, related to wanting to know, presumably with some craving. It quickly passed and settled. “Me” was suddenly there!
Sitting here, as I write this saying “me… me… me…” lands nowhere. But “me” is lurking still in the wings so to speak!
I'm not sure if I have really answered your question, but this is it so far!
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Thank you for the details of how this is going so far!
Please know that this is very, very subtle - the most subtle inquiry you've done so far. The sense of "me" can arise, and then vanish, especially if you pay any attention to it. It might seem as though it slips through your fingers as soon as you start to focus on it.
Also, a big part of this step of inquiry is getting used to the subtlety of the looking needed. It is as though you have to become attuned to it, which might be a bit frustrating at times. However, while everyone struggles at first with it, everyone also manages to settle down to this more subtle sort of looking :-)
If and when the sense of "me" does arise, please don't presume anything or conceptualise, such as it arising due to craving.
Also, try to avoid concepts such as “oh, it’s just awareness being aware of itself”. In other words, allow a bird, a book or a table to be just that, without analyzing the nature of that bird, book or table.
Just allow “me” to arise, and also notice how it feels in the body - notice the felt sense of awareness, consciousness, or separation, without any concepts providing commentary about what you are looking at is or isn’t.
Pressing on, please explore how the sense of "me" can be encouraged or allowed to arise - it sounds like everyday experiences may not trigger it much. For example, it may be something provocative or even challenging that you can look at (a picture of a politician you don’t care for, perhaps?). Or, it might be a painful memory from the past, by which a natural sort of protectiveness of your core arises. In other words, what sorts of experiences tend to trigger a “me”sort of awareness or separation?
It won’t of course be a physical separation, but more of a sense that a portion of experience is cordoned off, and able to be labeled as consciousness, awareness, presence, knowingness, beingness or similar, regardless of whether or not the label “me” is also applied.
However the sense of separation arises, please don't just allow it to arise and then pass away: try to get sensitive to when it starts to arise. When it does start to arise, drop the attention being paid to what is "not me"; for example, drop looking at the butterfly, and look inward to get a sense of what seems to be creating and noticing that separation.
To avoid the sense of "me" slipping through your fingers so quickly: try to more passively notice what the separator thing might be, rather than actively scouring experience for whatever it is. In just noticing that the separation is happening, silently ask yourself: "what sort of thing is making this separation happen?" So, as before, the intent at this point is to get a sense of what "it" seems to be.
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Thanks for the helpful clarification of this next process. I re-listened to your interviews on the 8th fetter, which were very helpful. I particularly resonated with your description of an 'interiority' - that seems to correlate with my experience thus far, particularly when doing the looking in fetters 6 and 7. That sense of an inner tension or boundary, holding an inner 'me', has largely dropped, and it now feels as though the last wisps of this inner 'me' need releasing.
There were two 'me' experiences in the last 2 days. I woke up yesterday morning and remembered fragments of a dream,which I wrote down.
I'd been away, and returned home. My partner (who didn't resemble anyone I know - let alone my real partner who died some time ago) was very quiet. There were other people around. when we were alone I talked to him. He had been having neurological symptoms, unsteadiness and shakiness, and was very worried. I said 'we will face this together' and went to cuddle him ... and then woke up.
On waking up, I felt shocked and confused. I recalled and wrote down the dream, and then lay back. There was a tension behind the upper sternum, that was 'me'. I tried to stay with it but it disappeared. Later I was startled by a loud noise - again the sensation behind the sternum arose - 'me' was being threatened. When I realised the noise was of no import, the sensation left, and 'me' left too.
Would it be helpful to look more closely at this? It feels as this is the wispy core that needs to be let go of. Otherwise there is much happiness and contentment. I'm not sure if I've grasped the subtle method this inquiry involves.
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Yes, a "wispy core" sounds quite appropo. It's so, so subtle, much more so than previous steps, so no worries if it seems like there isn't much to work with or that you aren't getting something. Also, as the "wispy core" dissipates, there naturally won't be much to work with :-)
In terms of engaging with situations where there seems to be something to look for, feel free to focus more on the bodily sensations, rather than resonance with the term "me" or "I", especially if the sense of "me" is fleeting. In particular, whenever there is an interior or "in here" aspect of any sort, even of a subtle nature, what observes, notices or recognises that?
Whether or not the sensations in the sternum area arise, or that experience is labelled as "me", just note how there is an inner, protected, controlled, owned and/or innate sense or flavor to experience.
When that inner, protected, controlled, owned or innate sense arises, it may seem as though something knows and see the fact that "oh, this is me and mine, and all else is not". What discerns, differentiates, filters or otherwise "processes" experience, by which there is knowing what is me/mine, and what isn't, and by which that sense of there being an inner, protected, controlled, owned or controllable aspect to experience is known?
It can work well if you can get sensitive to the arising of "me", rather than noticing "me" once it's present. It might feel as though you're just starting to step back from experience, or starting to gain a perspective.
So, please try to see if there are situations in daily life where that sense of inner, protected, controlled, owned or innate starts to arise. And as it starts to arise, what discerns, differentiates, filters or otherwise "processes" experience, by which there is knowing what is me/mine, and what isn't?
In sum, you're looking for a "what", not a "who" (or a "me").
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I think I need to let go more into the process, keeping an edge, but allowing it to unfold, as with your kind guidance, I am confident it will.
In many ways I'm enjoying this stage - being grounded and happy, as well as being more fully present.
But there is, as you describe it, the itch of 'me' that is coming to the fore.
I find it fascinating in this process, as each fetter drops the subject of the next one comes quite sharply into focus, as the next one to tackle. I think it would in some way, even if I didn't have prior knowledge of the list of fetters. A natural process.
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Glad that was helpful, and that you are enjoying what seems like the obvious next step :-)
And yes, try to let go, and relinquish of any analytical sort of approach or trying to understand any cause & effect, and just become sensitive to what it is that you seem to have that engages or becomes operative when a certain aspect of experience has a flavor of being inner, protected, controlled, owned and/or innate.
Try to avoid discerning the “nature” of what is seen or heard, such as the call of a bird, a loud noise, etc. For example, since there is no more “perception of things” happening, it might be tempting to conclude that whatever it is you are looking for (consciousness, awareness, etc.) must be looking at itself, or similar.
That “me” flavor might not last very long, particularly if you try to look too intently - a softer touch of more noticing (rather than scouring) experience is likely helpful in that regard. Otherwise, it might feel as though it slips through your fingers.
So, please take some notes when any of those sorts of "flavors" arise (whether or not a strong sense of "me" accompanies them), and what it seems that creates or notices that flavor.
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I liked the description of 'me' being like a smell or scent. One can be walking along, and smell something, look around, not see where or what it is coming from, walk along a bit further, and it is gone. Then, perhaps walking that way again and again, the cause of the scent is apparent. And then it happens again.
I have been working on defining 'me', or, as it seems to provoke more, to define this is NOT me. One small example, was reading your suggestion that I make notes - immediately there was a thought "I don't make notes!' in that I don't keep a journal. Which is broadly speaking true, as I rarely read them again. I noticed the sense of separation, and the slight tightening behind the upper sternum. It melted away. I thought I might get into dialogue with the sensation - 'hello' are you me?'
I have started making notes though!
By making these definitions aren't I at some level making a comparison with 'other', even subconsciously? It seems as long as there is the sense of a 'me-thing', there has also at some level to be a sense of an 'other-thing'. Does that mean that although shifts occur, the other fetters are still there at some level, until 8 falls?
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Yes, 'me' is a flavor or scent - definitely not something you can put your finger on, and yet it is all-pervasive at times.
That's great that you noticed the sense of separation arising upon my unwittingly suggesting that you take notes :-) The tightening behind the sternum may or may not always show up, but the separation, and the sense that there is an "in here" (and thus an "out there") should be fairly consistent.
For some, vestiges (or perhaps just memories) of earlier fetters still persist when working on/with fetter #8. That was not my experience - I was among those for whom each step was a clean break.
The "me" is more or less non-describable and indefinable - even calling it a "me thing" is perhaps going too far! Instead of trying to define "me", please notice what happens if and when the sense of flavor/scent of "me" arises. If and when that sense of "me" arises, what creates and/or notices it? What discerns it, distinguishes it, filters it out from "not me", etc.?
So, you're looking for a "what" that is identified with or as “me”, rather than directly looking at or for a "who" (or "me").
Decisively not-finding this "what" will take care of the "me" as well, just as not-finding "perception" in the previous step took care of everything else :-)
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I've started making notes - my better hand writing at least means they are legible! You ask me for a what, but I think this is more of a “why” there is a holding to 'me'. It may relate to the whole exploration.
There is no doubt that at present I'm feeling good about 'me' in its various aspects. This I am enjoying. I spent many years in my teens and twenties hating who I was. I couldn't understand why other people despite their faults could apparently not be too concerned about themselves. During that time, I used to have dreams/nightmares in which I was unpleasant and violent to people, mostly with speech, occasionally physically. I used to wake up sweating and terrified about what I had done in the dream. My power and capacity to behave badly, really troubled me. I was ashamed, but also defensive. Yet I could see other people behaving badly in different ways, perhaps acknowledging it, and then just getting on with life. What was their secret I used to think, how come they seem OK about themselves? Why won't they let me into the secret?
An experience in my 30s opened a doorway for me - I had more understanding - it felt as though I had joined the human race. But I still felt in a sort of limbo, doing my best, but knowing I was failing. So, the joy of stumbling into Buddhism a few years later gave me the capacity for change. And over the years there has been change, beneficial to me, and for the most part to those around me. Doing the fetters process has created more positive changes, as the various layers of being have cracked off, like constricting bands being cut.
Now, at present, there is a large part of my being happy with what is here. But no 'me' altogether? No 'me' to be content about? Does this feel a step too far? Perhaps there is a holding on to this view that is too pleasant. And yet, I know and see that it needs to go - to be released.
There is a sense of holding onto a central pole of 'me', for safety possibly. You asked:
If and when that sense of "me" arises, what creates and/or notices it?
Yes indeed, I understand your hall of mirrors analogy. “Me” can't keep looking back at “me”, that is not possible, and yet that is how it seems. Simply residual tension in the energy body. Relax and let go.
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Thank you for that, and your realisation of how important it is that there be a sense of a central pole of 'me', likely for safety. That's one way of describing what this step is about - seeing what the sense of "me" does for you, thus why it is so persistent. Please do keep an eye out for the flavor of not just "me", but also the flavor of fear and/or concern for safety that the thought of releasing "me" might trigger.
In terms of looking, instead of directly inducing the "hall of mirrors" effect, in which there can be a "standoff" of sorts, where "me" looks for "me":
- When there is a sense of "me", and thus "not me" as well, look for what "in here" looks out at what is "out there" (i.e., "not me")?
- Also, please try to make the looking impersonal: instead of "me" looking for anything, allow it to be simply "looking". It might help to silently drop in "simply looking... simply looking..." now and again, to keep it more impersonal.
Thus, just allow the looking for what perceives whatever is "not me", perhaps as if whatever it is detects or recognises the "not me-ness" of whatever you are currently separate from.
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Dear Kevin, thanks for your advice. There is no me, I or mine!!
I woke up to your email, and was reflecting with a cup of tea. I had the image of my hanging on to 'me', as like holding the pole or straps on a moving bus or the underground, to stop being thrown about. But then I thought 'Hey, but there is no pole', so there is nothing to hang to.
Later I was sitting, reflecting and remembered years ago ringing the Irish Embassy in London, to enquire if I could get an Irish passport. ( My Dad was born in Ireland, although we are not Irish). The Embassy guy told me that “Yes I was an Irish Citizen", and the paperwork needed to apply for my passport. I was surprised how easy it seemed, and started asking more questions. In a broad Irish accent he said: "You're an Irish citizen, whether you like it or not, or know it or not"! (I have both Irish and UK passports, possibly useful when we leave the EU).
Remembering this, I thought today - and I was an Irish citizen from birth. It just is. Then there was a moment of discontinuity, and I knew there was no me. I sat with tears in my eyes, then had a short shaking attack, followed by feeling very grounded. I noticed then and since that there is no inner tension - the chakras and central channel are completely free and open. So there is no me, I, mine, 'whether I like it or not or know it or not!' And of course, I can still continue to do what I could do before, as I haven't lost anything - it was never there to lose. I'm just feeling very quiet but happy.
I sit here feeling so grateful to you, for your kindness and guidance.
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That's a fascinating story, and how it fits in so wonderfully with what we have been looking at :-)
What happens now when you silently drop in "me... me..." - what is the experience of that?
What sort of response is there?
Also, what is the sense of there being an "in here" versus and "out there"?
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Hello Kevin - thanks for getting back so quickly. Dropping in “me...me…” lands nowhere. It seems to have no meaning any longer.
There doesn't seem to be an inner and outer - just 'isness'.
I'm aware as I write this, that thinking occurs, that someone sitting next to me wouldn't know, unless I expressed it, so on that level there is inner, but there are no more strings or bands to cut-nothing held 'inside' - nothing there.
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Super :-) You're not going crazy, by the way!
Please sit down to meditate, or otherwise look introspectively - your choice as to what sort of meditation it might be. What is the experience of that introspection?
Also, what is "awareness"? What does the term mean, or refer to?
And having experienced a "me" your whole life: was it because you identified with an aspect of experience, or identified as an aspect of experience? Is/was there a difference between identifying with and identifying as something?
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Don't worry - with each shift I have felt more sane!
I have been sitting in meditation quite a lot these last few weeks, mainly open awareness, usually 40 to 60 minutes. Today, I sat and the body grounded quite quickly. I was aware of the openness through the central channel, the breath flowing right through the body. The main focus seemed to rest on the heart and throat area. There was a steady feeling of joy and contentment. Commentary voice seems to have gone, thinking was sparse. I didn't experience going off into higher states.
What is awareness? The noticing of what is actually happening at anyone time - what one notices, which of necessity is only a small part of what is being experienced by the senses. It's not a thing.
As to “with experience” as against 'as experience' - I'm not sure which is which, but whilst there was a sense of “me”, there was a gap between experience and the me that experiences - I suppose setting up a commentary voice. That gap seems to have closed, so that now there is simply experience.
The unpleasant feeling of being rather pleased with myself has gone, also, certainly this morning, a habitual tendency to feel a bit nihilistic on waking up.
Today, there was just “waking up”. I've had an unexpectedly busy day, but have been able to easily transfer from one activity to another without any difficulty.
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Ah, super - increasing sanity is always nice :-)
And that is a beautiful description of what it is like to just sit in a grounded way.
OK, let's cross "awareness" of the list of things that exist! It's of course a handy word at times, though even something that is presumed to be fundamental like "awareness" doesn't actually exist.
And yes, there's just experience - identifying with it (as if you own or control it) or identifying as it (in the sense that it is you, and you are it) can eventually lose their meaning... which is the whole point here :-)
Glad that daily life continues to just go along, perhaps as easily as ever?
At this point, I'm going to stop asking specific questions (though I may have more!), and just ask you to notice (and let me know) if/when the following occurs:
- The sense of "me" arises, not just from memory, but as a lived experience.
- The experience of there being an "in here" to experience arises in a significant way.
- There is a sense of missing or wishing you still had a sense of some or all of experience that is “me”, something that you own and/or control, is internal to you, provides a sense of familiarity and safety, is innate or inherent to you, etc.
- A sense of anxiety, or perhaps even mild panic, such as when painful memories or difficult situations arise, and it's as if a trusted or safe landing spot, centre point, or basis of a coping strategy aren't available any longer.
On the last bullet, as I've mentioned before, when the sense of "me" fades, unresolved trauma can come up. The therapy you’ve done in years past may have done a great deal to address that (which would be great!), but do be sensitive to if and when it seems like you're working without a net, or otherwise it seems that either past or current difficulties cannot be managed or dealt with.